Rebel Diaries

Eleanor Tweddell - Redundancy And New Doors Opening

February 13, 2023 Eleanor Tweddell Season 2 Episode 43
Rebel Diaries
Eleanor Tweddell - Redundancy And New Doors Opening
Show Notes Transcript

If you enjoy this episode please leave me a voicemail and possibly get featured on the show:

Eleanor Tweddell is the founder of Another Door, where you are encouraged to rethink work and see change as opportunity. Eleanor coaches and mentors people to discover their thing, develop their thing, create their thing.

Eleanor is the author of Why losing your job could be the best thing that ever happens to you

After 23 years of corporate life, in senior roles with Whitbread, Costa Coffee, RAC, Virgin Atlantic and Vodafone, Eleanor decided to start her first business after being made redundant.

Eleanor talks about seeing ‘change as opportunity, despite the fear’ on her podcast, as a guest on podcasts, in the media and as a speaker.

What Scott discusses with Eleanor

  • Her redundancy after 25 years in corporate life
  • When she decided in the middle of an interview that she didn't want the job
  • Why she started her own business
  • When you lose your job you go on automatic pilot
  • How people define their identities by their job
  • Her research on the shock of redundancy
  • The three choices you have when it happens to you
  • Starting by thinking about what you want to change and upgrade what's going on in your life
  • And lots more...

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[00:00:00] Scott: Hi, I'm Scott Fulton, the host of the Rebel Diaries podcast. This show will help you learn how to make work better for you, your colleagues and the organization you work for. I believe the modern workplace is broken for too many people with leaders and their teams, drowning in corporate complexity, information overload, and unnecessary levels of stress. 

[00:00:18] Scott: Having spent over 20 years leading disruptive high-performing teams who have won international awards for their impact. I've now dedicated my career to helping coach and train leaders and teams to deliver more value and impact at work whilst reducing the risk of burnout, overload, and wasted effort. 

[00:00:34] Scott: This podcast is dedicated to you and thousands like you who know work can and should be better.

[00:00:39] Scott: You'll get tips and insights from me as well as the amazing guests I invite to be the show, many of them have disrupted their industries and are thought leaders, speakers, and authors who have fascinating stories and advice to share. 

[00:00:50] Scott: Thank you for listening. I'm Scott Fulton and welcome to the Rebel Diaries show. 

[00:00:54] Eleanor: But I had a moment of thinking, "I don't want this job. don't want this job". I especially remember the guy saying, " so tell me why you want this? Why are you here today?"

[00:01:04] Eleanor: And I remember feeling everything inside of me saying, "I don't, I literally don't want to be here. I dunno what I'm doing"

[00:01:11] Eleanor: and so lose job. everything about our survival and what happens next is about get new job. That's how we are programmed. Fill this awful awkward pain and hurt and weird gap that's occurred in our lives with the next thing.

[00:01:26] Eleanor: If you go a bit further, you know the fact that you had the characteristic to to be a person that works for an organization that you love and that you could connect with, and you got employed by them, and then you are valued by it.

[00:01:39] Eleanor: There's something there. There's golden nuggets. 

[00:01:41] Scott: Hi, and welcome to this week's episode. Eleanor is a writer, consultant, coach, and facilitator. She has over 23 years of corporate experience and founded Another Door as a space for people to think. I reflect and feel supported whilst rethinking work. In this episode, we discuss redundancy. And how it can be the best thing to happen to people People

[00:02:02] Scott: Hi Eleanor. Welcome to the Rebel Diaries Podcast.

[00:02:05] Eleanor: Thank you for having me, Scott.

[00:02:07] Scott: Can you give us a bit of background? How did you get to doing what you specialize in now?

[00:02:11] Eleanor: How did I get here? The big question that we sit there and think, what on earth, what am I doing here? So for me, I guess it did start with a redundancy, with a door closing 25 years in corporate life, doing all sorts of things. And then you get that job loss moment. I started applying for jobs as we all do, when we lose our job and think, okay, I'll just move on. I'll just get something else. And had a moment sitting in an interview for a really good job, an amazing job. But I had a moment of thinking, "I don't want this job. don't want this job". I especially remember the guy saying, " so tell me why you want this? Why are you here today?"

[00:02:51] Eleanor: And I remember feeling everything inside of me saying, "I don't, I literally don't want to be here. I dunno what I'm doing". So that was my kind of moment and it took me on this journey of so if I don't want that, which is an amazing job, what do I want? And I have no clue. So I had to really start opening up and thinking, okay, I quite fancy the idea of starting my own business, but I've never done that before and I have no idea where to start, and I don't have a network of people who do that.

[00:03:19] Eleanor: I have a network of corporate people. So it was a real sort of adventure into the unknown trying stuff, failing badly quite a lot taking some chances, being safe with contracts just to get money in when I needed to. And then finding things like coaches or network groups or programs that just helped me and books and things.

[00:03:43] Eleanor: And that's where I started. So I guess that's why I do what I do now and why I I started Another Door and I help people to get recommended for their thing. It's because, , it took me years, whereas it probably could have been done in a couple of months.

[00:03:59] Scott: So that's interesting. How did you. . So you went just interested in that moment where you realized, I don't want this job. What got you into that interview seat? Did you not know at that point that you didn't want it? Did you feel pressured that I just need to get another corporate job?

[00:04:15] Scott: What was the thinking behind that?

[00:04:17] Eleanor: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think it's partly when you lose your job. You go on automatic pilot, you're on automatic pilot anyway in corporate land, which I didn't realize until you do, you reflect back and think, wow, what the hell was I even doing? I don't even know what I was doing in that

[00:04:35] Scott: just a zombie

[00:04:36] Eleanor: I used to get to the office and yeah, what was I doing? But you're still on autopilot, so you are pre, we are pre-programmed more than we ever think, and so lose job everything about our survival and what happens next is about get new job. That's how we are programmed. Fill this awful awkward pain and hurt and weird gap that's occurred in our lives with the next thing.

[00:05:01] Eleanor: And the easiest thing to do that is get another job. And so that's all I was doing. Like everybody does. It's okay, I'm doing this head of communications role, I shall put head. head of communications in LinkedIn or Indeed or whatever, recruitment. And I'll look for all the vacancies and I'll apply for all of them.

[00:05:22] Eleanor: And I got quite bold and applied for comms director job, let's upgrade this. I don't want to be just doing what I'm doing, let's go for it. And and start getting interviews for that. So that's why I was saying, yeah, I was getting the promotion job. I was getting these kind of, okay, I'm gonna make this a good thing.

[00:05:38] Eleanor: So I'd already started. , how do I make it a good thing? But I was still in safe zone. I was going I'm a comms person, I'll just get something a little bit better. But yeah, I think we all do that. We all just need to get out of the pain as soon as possible and the, and we've tried and find the easiest route through it.

[00:05:56] Eleanor: And that's part of the challenge, of making redundancy a

[00:05:58] Eleanor: good thing. 

[00:05:59] Scott: Hmm. Yeah, cuz there's obviously that financial pressure is probably the biggest thing on people's mind. I'm also interested in the feeling that people's jobs. Define them. You ask somebody what, introduce somebody for the first time. It's usually what do you do, isn't it?

[00:06:13] Scott: And it's usually, I'm. I dunno, head of comms or I'm a digital person. You define yourself almost by, you don't say, oh, I'm a parent and I've got five really good friends and I go, climbing at the weekend. It's usually your job, isn't it? Cuz that dominates your life. So I know, and I've been through redundancy myself once by accident, but that's a story for another podcast, and. It was hard because yeah, that something I'd done 20 years and I defined that was my identity. So I'm just interested in your take on that. 

[00:06:46] Eleanor: The identity thing, cuz as you said before, the financial part is driving you, but not always, some people don't have that financial drive, we just assume that's it.

[00:06:56] Eleanor: Of course it is for the majority of people, but sometimes you've got a big payout, sometimes you actually, you got more financial back. behind the scenes. So maybe it's not that. So what else is driving you? And it could be circumstances, but you're right, identity is huge. And who am I if I don't have a job?

[00:07:16] Eleanor: What? What? I'm gonna have to sit in a room on my own and start thinking about life. Oh my God, that's terrifying. What if I have no presentations or bosses chasing me or pings going off because so and so wants a new deadline?

[00:07:30] Eleanor: What? What will I face? What will I find? It's terrifying. So there's that going on, but you're right, identity is huge and depending on how much you've integrated into your job or your organization, It's how much work you've gotta do to unravel that. I've worked for brands that people feel absolutely passionate and loyal to work for.

[00:07:50] Eleanor: There's something deeper than that. Your part that you said there about people saying, oh, so what do you do? I've spent my years saying, oh, I work for Costa Coffee, I work for Virgin Atlantic, I work for Channel Four. You know it. I haven't said my job title. I say the organization because I'm wedded into that structure.

[00:08:08] Eleanor: So it's even hard. . Unfortunately none of those organizations actually fired me, but . If you are fired by an organization that you absolutely are in love with, as some people are, you can be in love with Virgin Atlantic. I know that's what the feeling is with for people. That hurts on a deep level and you can no longer be that proud person to say, yeah, this is who I work for.

[00:08:30] Eleanor: It leaves a void like, shit, what am I, who am I without this? But this is where there's opportunity and this is what I write about. It's what I talk about. There's opportunity in all of this. If you go a bit further, you know the fact that you had the characteristic to to be a person that works for an organization that you love and that you could connect with, and you got employed by them, and then you are valued by it.

[00:08:54] Eleanor: There's something there. There's golden nuggets, and so if you start searching deeper about that, then that's where you can find real insights about yourself, which will really help you move

[00:09:03] Eleanor: forward. 

[00:09:04] Scott: Yeah. In preparation for this, I looked up the definition of redundancy, and it's quite depressing. You read, no longer needed, superfluous. You know these kind of words, and you can see how essentially you say, one minute you're feeling valued by the organization. Next minute you are no longer needed and superfluous, you're out the door and that's. That's a shock isn't it? It must have a significant impact on a lot of people's mental health and it's then you've got that choice, . I can just wallow in my own self pity and feel like I'm a victim of circumstance or try easy to say, but dust yourself off and say, actually, can I turn this into positive?

[00:09:40] Scott: Is this given me the necessary nudge I needed to get out of my comfort zone? And that's gonna be depend how people are wired. Their current thinking. So yeah. What's the kind of steps you take people through then if they suddenly get hit with, my world has turned upside down. I've lost my job, I've lost my identity, I've lost my friends.

[00:09:56] Scott: Cuz a lot of people, their friends are at work, aren't they? What's, how'd you get 'em out of that

[00:10:02] Eleanor: I don't get them out of it. They get themselves out of it. Everyone can get themselves out of anything. We can see, we see this on a daily basis. We hear stories of people doing all sorts of amazing things. So that's the first thing. Know that you are gonna get yourself outta this and you're gonna get yourself into something even better.

[00:10:18] Eleanor: And if you can start telling yourself that, that's the first step, the problem is this part that you mentioned, the shock. And I did a huge piece of work on research on this shock part. How it aligns actually to grief and loss. And it is a trauma of some sorts, depending on, as you say, how wedded you are, how long you've been there.

[00:10:37] Eleanor: It depends. The one thing for sure is we don't, we, none of us all go through this in the same way. We all work through change in our lives in different ways. Re create space for non-judgmental views. If you are with someone who's lost their job, or you know someone, or you're in a friend, create space for them because you can say, oh, I just who gives a shit?

[00:11:00] Eleanor: Just move on. Good for you. But other b. Exactly. Other people have different ways of dealing with change. It's creating the space for others and then give yourself that gift, the space yourself. Give yourself space to breathe and wallow and feel a bit miserable. You don't have to be pushed through and be positive pants.

[00:11:19] Eleanor: I get a little bit of pushback from that, from people saying that's all right for you, if you've got bills to pay, I've gotta push on. But if you think about that, you've gotta get. Whatever the situation, you've gotta get up the next day and put yourself in a position to get a job so you can get up and be miserable and panic and worry.

[00:11:37] Eleanor: And scramble through and try and get something. Or you can get up and choose to say, okay, I'm gonna make this a good thing. I'm gonna give this a go. I'm gonna try and look after myself. I'm gonna try and be okay. Just take pressure off myself and calmly work through it. The people who can calmly work and be more intentional about what they're doing and get braver with.

[00:11:57] Eleanor: I wanna. For them people in that job, and I'm gonna target them. They get the result quicker. So it's not a luxury space to think is not a luxury. It's how you get there quicker. It just takes nerve because it's easier to worry and panic and trust me, I do a lot of that. But you catch yourself and you go, oh my God, what am I doing this for?

[00:12:18] Eleanor: Reset. Come on. Calm myself down. I've got this time next year it'll be fine. So it's self talk and it's helping yourself be calm and find a solution in the best way possible.

[00:12:31] Scott: And how do you think people can widen their horizons then? So you said about, the default is I need a job. I'm just gonna go to what I know. And that may be right for some people, but also they could be missing a massive opportunity to, and you hear lots of people say redundancy, they look back and go, this is the best thing that ever happened.

[00:12:51] Scott: Cuz now it gave me the nudge. , is that a post? 

[00:12:55] Eleanor: Q, title of my book, 

[00:12:56] Scott: perfect 

[00:12:58] Eleanor: Thanks for the research, Scott

[00:12:59] Scott: worries. I wish I could say, I could read that in the background. I can't. For those listening, we're on video at the moment. So yeah. I guess my question was does it just down to that individual or there, is there some specific advice you say to, maybe don't rush into just rinse and repeat what you know, take the opportunity to just think about actually, if I had a, if I could do what I really wanted, what would that look like and would it pay the bills as well?

[00:13:25] Scott: Because, we can't just all , do what we love and expect to get paid for it all the time, depending what it is. But yeah. How do you kinda help people get that wider.

[00:13:34] Eleanor: Yeah. Where do you start? Again, I think the start is to think about what? What do you wanna change? And as you said, it might be fine. It might be completely perfect to get to the next job because you actually loved it and it was working out for you. But it's an opportunity to say, , how can I upgrade what's going on in my life?

[00:13:52] Eleanor: That's where I would start. What with the question. And play with that kind of, okay, what could I, how could I make this better? What things would I like to change? So asking yourself questions like what didn't I like about the last job that I was doing? What was I struggling with? What was getting on my nerves?

[00:14:09] Eleanor: Just stuff like that can sometimes help you just go the next job or the next thing I do has got to. be a little bit different in that way, but there's no overnight thing here. I've, I think you're more on a train of personal development for probably the rest of your life.

[00:14:24] Eleanor: Once you start off that thinking, if you start that thinking of saying, how can I work better? How can I have a different relationship with work? This is now, it's like going to the gym or starting exercise. You gotta just keep working on it and you'll come in and out of intense thinking about what you want in life, and then you'll let go a little bit and you're just relaxing to what you're doing and getting to flow.

[00:14:46] Eleanor: And then you'll come back and say, oh my God, what am I doing again? And be a bit more intentional about it. That's how I would approach it. So asking yourself questions about What was going on for you? And just looking back a little bit, a bit of reflection I think can really help reset and then and face you forward for something a little bit more positive.

[00:15:05] Eleanor: In the book, I've got the three things, three choices. You've basically got stick, twist, and bust so you can stick with, and don't forget, we're trying to look for an upgrade in all of this. We're not looking to downgrade. I know people will be like, oh, I'm just gonna have to take this job cause that's all I can get.

[00:15:20] Eleanor: No keep holding onto that. You're gonna upgrade from it. So the first one is stick. Stick to what you do, but look for an upgrade in some way. Can you get closer to home? Can you work from home? Can you be flexible hours? Could it be a different kind of work environment? Could it be a promotion?

[00:15:39] Eleanor: So stick to your expertise and what you do, but upgrade in some way. or Twist is stick to the expertise, but do it in a different way. So you might be a contractor, you might freelance, you might train it, you might do it in-house or agency depending on which side you work. So it's playing around with your expertise and understanding what your skills are, but you now delivering it in a different,

[00:16:05] Eleanor: And then the third one is bust, where you just throw the cars up in the air and you go we're going to, I'm gonna do something completely different now. I've had enough Vos, I'm gonna retrain, I'm gonna go traveling. I'm going to start my cafe on the beach in Thailand. Whatever it is, you've maybe always wanted to do something and it's, and this is your moment, or it's a new feeling about, actually I'm on a mission to do something completely different.

[00:16:28] Eleanor: And then from that, It's stepping stones cuz none of this happens overnight. So it's okay, what's the smallest first step that I've gotta take? And then you start stepping over step by step towards where you wanna get to. But as I say, I don't really feel like there is a simple overnight solution.

[00:16:46] Eleanor: I think it's a lot of trying and failing, getting back up again and trying and failing again. But then you start to enjoy that process of just growing and.

[00:16:56] Scott: Yes. It's interesting. It's almost like taking responsibility for yourself. So I've done corporate work for 20 years, and you do feel like they own you to some degree. They pay your bills they define your hours, they. Decide how he should work the policies, procedures.

[00:17:16] Scott: So that's almost like a bigger hit than when they go we don't need you anymore. Bye. And that can affect your identity but then being on the self-employed side, it's a complete shock cuz you're like, oh, I'm in charge of everything. And it, when I first started, I was like, this is weird. I don't need to ask anybody if I can just go to the shops now or go to the gym or whatever it is.

[00:17:38] Scott: It took a while, if I'm being honest, to get that personal ownership of myself . So I think there's probably something there around, the traditional job that lasts 10, 20 years is declining, and I think the younger generations are like, oh, I'll do this for two years and I'll switch, then I'll switch, then I'll switch.

[00:17:56] Scott: That is probably a bit more healthy, to be honest. I'm rabbiting again, but yeah, is there something there for you? Am I on the right lines in terms of people like their responsibility and feeling back in control? Cause it's about control, isn't it? The control has been taken away from me. Now I have no job versus I'm gonna grab this, I'm gonna take control.

[00:18:13] Scott: And actually in my new job, even if it's in employment, I want to feel more in control than being owned by the company.

[00:18:20] Eleanor: Yeah, that could definitely come into it. I think you hit the nail on the head just before when you said, it. , it's everyone's gotta find their own way cuz self-employment isn't for everybody. Some people do better employed. And so it is really doing that thinking about what you want out of life.

[00:18:36] Eleanor: It's going back to really being clear on your priorities and what's important to you. I think that's what drives the answer to that. And people who work with me will sometimes say, oh, I really want freedom. , and that's why I need to get away from corporate life and start my own thing. But you have to then dig deeper.

[00:18:58] Eleanor: What does freedom mean to you? What does that look like? Because freedom in self-employed world is not perhaps, oh, I can work any hours and I stop at three, and it's the opposite. Free, as self employment is bloody hard work. Relentless, and this is now you for 24 hours. This is all you think about forever.

[00:19:19] Eleanor: And no one will have a, and there's nothing. And some days you're gonna really think, what am I doing? I've got no money coming and this is awful. And other days you're like, wow, this is incredible. So that's not freedom, but it is freedom to create, freedom to live like that. Whereas if you're wanting the freedom to be with your children or your family, or you are a carer, for example oh, I want the freedom.

[00:19:42] Eleanor: Not be working after five o'clock because I've got these responsibilities. Actually, a, an employee job might do that better, but you just have to put in the boundaries. You just have to find the right company that goes, yeah, drop the tools, go home at five o'clock, that's fine. And then you gotta do the work to own that.

[00:19:59] Eleanor: So it's always you doing the work on what you are really wanting and what your priorities. And taking ownership. But I think you're right there. It's a really good challenge. It's not all about escape the nine to five. That's not always the answer. I think it's really challenging yourself and what how do I really wanna live and could I be doing it right now?

[00:20:16] Eleanor: You don't even have to wait until you've lost your job to do this thinking because you could change how you are working and approaching work from where you're sitting right now. You can just say I'm gonna be brave today and not work until eight o'. I'm just gonna shut

[00:20:32] Scott: I'm not gonna check my emails at on holiday.

[00:20:35] Eleanor: Exactly.

[00:20:35] Eleanor: I'm not gonna do it. Do you know? There you go. Rebel. This is a Rebel podcast. But you're right though. Yeah, don't, I never did. I'm gonna be honest, I never checked my emails. I wasn't interested . 

[00:20:47] Scott: No. 

[00:20:48] Eleanor: In fact I'm talking myself back into employed land. What am I even doing in this self-employed land?

[00:20:52] Eleanor: It. Take ownership for how you've got your relationship with your work. And if it's not working because you feel like you have no ownership, that's the bit you fix. If there's a toxic bo boss or a toxic environment, then you fix that. You don't, you, you don't get that in any other way than taking responsibility for it.

[00:21:10] Eleanor: So either way, you've gotta own it.

[00:21:11] Scott: Yeah, so I mentioned your thoughts on this. So it was a while ago. It was Simon Sinek. and he was giving a talk as he does, and he 

[00:21:21] Eleanor: Was he talking? That's amazing. I didn't know he talked

[00:21:25] Scott: He was quite animated about the responsibility employers have to look after their staff and by that he meant not get them in a position where they have to be made redundant.

[00:21:35] Scott: And it's, while you're hearing it a lot, certainly in America and like the technology space at the moment, just what's your views? Actually the company's really cocked up if they've got into this position. Over hiring and then, oh, bugger. Now we need to let people go. What's your views?

[00:21:51] Eleanor: Oh God. We could be, all day on this one. I've been doing a lot of reading up on it cause I'm fascinated by. The tech companies and the, I'm fascinated by the volume of layoff. That's what I'm intrigued by. I think what's going on currently, it's probably more intentional than we know. So they, maybe, there's a lot of intent around it. They, there's plans around what they want to be doing. There's a lot of things where people maybe. Have over forecast and they've had to do it to boost shareholder narrative.

[00:22:23] Eleanor: And so again, it's intentional. And the other thing we gotta remember is it's a business. So as much as we wanna be, oh, we're a family and there's people and all that stuff, it's a business and it will bring in loads of people to boost whatever X, y, Z it needs and it will reduce when it's no longer needed.

[00:22:42] Eleanor: I think that's, How business will work. So yeah, interesting on Simon's and it's yeah, you gotta make, work with your people, but that's assuming a lot. That's assuming that was built into the strategy and the

[00:22:54] Eleanor: planning and that's what people are for. But when you read other things, like even old books like Charles Handy books, like I love Charles Handy books.

[00:23:04] Eleanor: And even though they're really old now, some of the stuff, even then he was predicting that, you. The donut effect of growing big and big. And then a company will go, oh no, this is too big and we'll downsize. But actually all that does is create small bubbles of enterprise around it, cuz you still actually need some of that thing feeding in.

[00:23:24] Eleanor: It's just people are supplying and working in a different way. So you're constantly just reforming. How work looks. So it's not that work disappears it redistributes itself into contracting or agency or into a different space. And then suddenly someone will say, oh, why are we spending all this money on freelancers?

[00:23:43] Eleanor: Let's bring them all in house. And then suddenly you get, this big swell again. And then someone will say, oh my God, why are we spending all this money? But, and this is life.

[00:23:52] Scott: spikes, don't they? Big up and down.

[00:23:54] Eleanor: That's life. And that's because humans run businesses at the moment. I don't know. In the future, maybe chat p t or whatever it's called, that might G P T, that might be running us later.

[00:24:07] Eleanor: I dunno. But for now, humans run businesses. 

[00:24:10] Scott: host podcasts, don't we? So I reckon give it a year. We'll be interviewing the chat bot on rather than a human on the show. See what it thinks. Maybe, oh, maybe I've just given away a scoop. The first podcast to interview a. Oh, bugger. I should have kept that to myself.

[00:24:22] Scott: Stop talking. I'll edit this out. Anyway,

[00:24:25] Eleanor: How'd you know I'm not a robot.

[00:24:27] Scott: very convincing. One

[00:24:29] Eleanor: I'm a convincing

[00:24:30] Eleanor: robot. 

[00:24:30] Scott: Oh, sorry. That's sounded all awful. 

[00:24:32] Eleanor: Okay. 

[00:24:34] Scott: I'll definitely edit that out. So I know so I know a few people interested in what you think about the ethics of this, or maybe not ethics, it's their choice, but a few people that were made redundant by their company and then the company is oh, could you please come back as a contractor?

[00:24:49] Scott: And they did. 

[00:24:50] Eleanor: Yeah. And for that reason that I was describing, because it's a redistribution of work, it's not a loss of work. It's how work is being thought about and managed. And it does happen a lot. And that there again, there's your opportunity. So you're right, it's very emotional time. When you break up with a company, it's like breaking up with a person or whatever.

[00:25:12] Eleanor: It's the same emotions. You can spend a lot of time in frustration and revenge mode. Revenge is huge. Whatever that looks like, cuz who are you? Revenge. But you can then also switch that to think, right? So I'm gonna really make this. I'm gonna make this work for me. So yeah, pay me to leave. Give me my redundancy.

[00:25:33] Eleanor: Thank you very much. If this is in a head office environment and then yes, pay me now twice as much as I was getting paid to. Now come back. Yes, thank you very much. Love it. Happy days. But people that. Do that, they've taken the opportunity and and sometimes it, it happens a lot because of that.

[00:25:52] Eleanor: Yeah. Redistribution of work and other times people say, no, I need to disconnect. I don't want anything to do with you. Absolutely not. I know suppose Vodafone really wants me back after writing about , how they fired me. But , I never got invited back to contract funnily

[00:26:07] Eleanor: enough.

[00:26:07] Scott: get as a guest speaker, get autographs of the 

[00:26:10] Eleanor: They don't contact me at all. Funnily

[00:26:12] Eleanor: enough, 

[00:26:12] Scott: they're missing a 

[00:26:13] Eleanor: I don't think they give a shit. I don't think they even cared to or even know I exist, but that's how it felt for sure. But yeah, it's an odd one I think. I think why not? That's what I would say, get rid of work through the emotions and think about. Is this, what I'm wanting do is this gonna actually be some sort of advantage to me? It gives me some extra work while I do think about what I really wanna do next. Yeah, put push emotions to one side and get clear on what you're gonna get out

[00:26:39] Eleanor: of it. 

[00:26:40] Scott: Yeah. And I guess it's how you respond as you said and frame it. So I'm sure in many cases the redundancy isn't personal, is it? As you said, it's just business. So as you said, who'd you attack? It's usually the boss that gives you the bad news. They're the like, even though it's not necessarily their doing , you resent them for life.

[00:26:58] Scott: But I don't, just for the record to my old boss, by the way. I just realized I said that. But yeah it's how you frame

[00:27:03] Scott: it, 

[00:27:03] Eleanor: Yeah. It is true. And that's an interesting thing about who have you got in your head when you're thinking about who's hurt you? Because I've had to make people redundant in my previous. jobs you know that it's awful giving that news. And there's not once, once I have made that decision, not once, and not once have I agreed with it.

[00:27:21] Eleanor: I've, I'm always a bit of a sort of yeah, but what if we could do, I'm a bit of a Simon Sinek kind of that vibe probably. But what if we do this? What if we do that? I'll argue for my team till the end. But yeah, you're right. It comes down to this is a decision off you or go and deliver the news.

[00:27:37] Eleanor: But interesting when you, when it's happening to you, like who's in your head, and who is it that you think you are avenging and getting angry at

[00:27:44] Scott: feel you need to like, ah, I need to, who do I take this out on? . But some people will take it out on themselves, wouldn't they? Maybe. And just blame themselves and oh, I was obviously not good enough. And there's a danger. I'd imagine that people will go through that thought process, even if it's just

[00:27:59] Scott: numbers.

[00:28:00] Scott: It's just, you start to doubt yourself. And again, back to that definition of no longer needed, oh, I've just been cast aside. 

[00:28:07] Eleanor: Yeah. And then you gotta get over it and you gotta get back on it and find where are you needed because you, you clearly have something of value. Or if you don't make something of value, 

[00:28:18] Scott: so are you seeing an influx in people like needing your help? the numbers rising on redundancy certainly here in the UK a bit more or is it fairly steady?

[00:28:29] Eleanor: I don't actually do that now, , I don't specialize in purely in redundancy. But again, this is an interesting thing, that, if you start something. . Sometimes it grows with you. So I was just writing a blog about losing my job. I wasn't going, oh, I'm gonna be a career coach. I just was writing about it because I didn't really know where to start, and I thought what.

[00:28:50] Eleanor: How do people do this? So my thing was just writing about it and it became a book and then a business kind of came from that. But what I found myself doing was jumping on calls with people who'd lost their job because that's what they were reading about. And then they were sending me a message and saying, I've lost my job.

[00:29:06] Eleanor: Can we talk. And then meet the kid. Yeah, maybe I could be a coach for that. And so this is how it evolves and sometimes this is how your idea evolves into that space. But then you catch yourself like year two, three going, oh my God, what am I doing? Because one, that's a really hard market, really tough market because when you've lost your job, the last thing you're gonna do is spend money on anything.

[00:29:29] Eleanor: So I was spending way too much time on free calls, never hearing back from somebody. . They might buy my book, they might buy the course, but it was, the volume coming through to get one sale was incredible. So suddenly you start getting really down cause you're like hearing about, people are, quite upset and stressed on the call and they've just had a payout.

[00:29:50] Eleanor: So they've actually, all and then you've got nothing cuz , you are a freelancer coaching in this space and that's one of the dilemmas you have to keep on checking in. So I was like, oh my goodness, what am I. I dunno how I got here. This is not what really what it's not. I'm not a counselor. This, it felt like people 

[00:30:07] Eleanor: Some counseling. 

[00:30:08] Scott: yeah, very emotional, aren't they? And yeah.

[00:30:10] Scott: Yeah. 

[00:30:10] Eleanor: So it's not what I'm doing. So we did I joined up with other coaches and counselors and started a program and it was really great. We loved it because it was properly designed, like I put effort into designing the process to help people through, but it was hard slugs so to sell. You can imagine buying something like that when you feel like you've got no money and your panicking is really d.

[00:30:33] Eleanor: but again, it was all fine. So we do have a program that is quite a lower fee and people join Another Door Club, but that doesn't earn enough to make it a live-in. So what I started thinking about was more I loved working with the people who were like, I'm gonna make this the best thing that happened, hence the title of the book.

[00:30:51] Eleanor: How, show me how, and they had all the energy and drive to start a business or start something. and I work with that space. So actually that's more what I work with now. But yeah, there's some good messages there for people who are thinking about. , what do I do? I've lost my job. I want to do something new.

[00:31:09] Eleanor: Start something, but don't feel pressured to get it. All right. Go with it and just keep checking in with is this working for me or is this how it was meant to be? Like, try writing a newsletter about something or post it about your passion or something you're curious about and see what happens.

[00:31:24] Eleanor: But you might have to keep refining it as you're going

[00:31:26] Eleanor: along. 

[00:31:27] Scott: Yeah the whole classic test to fail, learn what you, cuz you dunno unless you try and, you shared at the beginning of the show, that was your journey to find it. And I guess it's having that mindset that it's never ending and saying this isn't for life and actually the world changes around you.

[00:31:43] Scott: I know your phrase is changes in opportunity, which I love that cuz I also say change is an opportunity, not a. From the digital space, which is around, the world is changing. You have to adapt. So that same logic applies in your personal life and your career, doesn't it? .

[00:31:57] Eleanor: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's nothing to be afraid of. If you embrace it in that way of going I'm gonna just try and find a way, is like the easiest. Way to approach change, I think rather than putting pressure on yourself to make it, something bigger than it actually 

[00:32:16] Scott: Yeah. Brilliant. So one of the questions I ask all my guests is, if you could take one book with you to a desert island and you're stranded for life, what would it be?

[00:32:25] Eleanor: One book I would take oh. you should have

[00:32:30] Eleanor: prompted me. . I'm looking at a

[00:32:33] Eleanor: thousand 

[00:32:33] Scott: You're looking at your bookcase.

[00:32:35] Eleanor: Yeah. I'm like, which book?

[00:32:37] Eleanor: I would take a notebook, actually not a book that's already written. I'd write my

[00:32:41] Eleanor: own. 

[00:32:42] Scott: You're own journal from the island. Yeah. I like that. It's good. 

[00:32:45] Scott: So if anyone wants to work with you, how do they get hold of you? What's the best way?

[00:32:48] Eleanor: Yeah, so well follow me on LinkedIn if you wanna hear random, I'm always posting random stuff on LinkedIn or And yeah, drop me a message as they does help people. Feel better about job loss and there's a nice course to go through that makes you feel better.

[00:33:06] Eleanor: But I work with you more when you've got your idea and you wanna make it happen.

[00:33:12] Scott: Brilliant. I'll get all those linked in the show notes. Eleanor, thank you for being on the show. It's been great chatting.

[00:33:16] Eleanor: Thank you very much for having me. It was fun.

[00:33:19] Scott: A big, thank you for listening to the Rebel Diaries show your time is precious, so it is appreciated. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to hit that subscribe button in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss the next one. There's a new episode every Monday morning, ideal for your commute to work or early morning walk. 

[00:33:36] Scott: Until next time, take care be a rebel and deliver work with impact.