Rebel Diaries

Wayne Brown - The Dark Triad Of Leadership And Beyond

February 06, 2023 Wayne Brown Season 2 Episode 42
Rebel Diaries
Wayne Brown - The Dark Triad Of Leadership And Beyond
Show Notes Transcript

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Wayne has spent the last 45 years in the corporate world and working at all levels across functions and industries.

The most recent 40 of those years he has operated in a dual role as a serial entrepreneur, having established nine businesses and founded two companies.

He leverages this broad experience, knowledge, and skill base to coach, mentor, facilitate, and educate executive talent, supporting them as they develop, grow and learn to transition as 21st-century leaders.

In November 2022, Wayne was recognized as "Executive Coach of The Year" by CEO Today magazine.

What Scott discusses with Wayne

  • Leadership stuck in the 20th Century and why they can't transition to the 21st Century
  • Why leaders think they need to be superhuman and have all the answers
  • How the business environment has changed and the old way of leadership isn't compatible 
  • Helping people become more self-aware and understand
  • Denial and why it's important to understand the need to change
  • What is the dark triad of leadership
  • Narcissist and psychopathic leaders in organisations and why organisations are reluctant to do anything about it
  • Challenges for leaders in leading remote and hybrid teams
  • Organisations spying on their employees
  • What is the incentive for leaders to bring employees back to the workplace?
  • And more...

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[00:00:00] Scott: Hi, I'm Scott Fulton, the host of the Rebel Diaries podcast. This show will help you learn how to make work better for you, your colleagues and the organization you work for. I believe the modern workplace is broken for too many people with leaders and their teams, drowning in corporate complexity, information overload, and unnecessary levels of stress. 

[00:00:18] Scott: Having spent over 20 years leading disruptive high-performing teams who have won international awards for their impact. I've now dedicated my career to helping coach and train leaders and teams to deliver more value and impact at work whilst reducing the risk of burnout, overload, and wasted effort. 

[00:00:34] Scott: This podcast is dedicated to you and thousands like you who know work can and should be better.

[00:00:39] Scott: You'll get tips and insights from me as well as the amazing guests I invite to be the show, many of them have disrupted their industries and are thought leaders, speakers, and authors who have fascinating stories and advice to share. 

[00:00:50] Scott: Thank you for listening. I'm Scott Fulton and welcome to the Rebel Diaries show. 

[00:00:54] Wayne: There's a lot of talk about the dark triad of leadership at the moment where we talk about narcissists and we talk about machiavellian type leaders and psychopathic leaders.

[00:01:07] Wayne: These people are alive and well in organizations. And what, I always find interesting about this group is that in many cases, the organization is also aware and they're reluctant to do anything about them because quite often they're very successful in generating results.

[00:01:27] Wayne: And so therefore, quite often the narcissist in particular goes unnoticed. The machiavellian style of leadership tends to be more obvious and so too the psychopath. " 

[00:01:39] Scott: Hi, and welcome to this episode. Wayne has traveled the world and helps leaders move from 20th century leadership styles to the 21st century. He understands why there is resistance for so many leaders to do so. 

[00:01:51] Scott: Last year, he won executive coach of the year from CEO Today Magazine. I'm sure you'll enjoy this episode.

[00:01:58] Scott: Hi Wayne. Welcome to the Rebel Diaries podcast.

[00:02:01] Wayne: Thank you sir. Great to be here, Scott. 

[00:02:03] Scott: Where are you located right now?

[00:02:05] Wayne: I'm stationed right at the moment in Shanghai. 

[00:02:08] Scott: I can detect a bit of an Australian accent there.

[00:02:11] Wayne: yeah. I've been based in Asia 18 years. So I'm, I probably have a slight accent, but not as strong as many of my colleagues

[00:02:20] Wayne: I'm a little bit of a nomad, so pretty much my whole career I've been on the go. Even the 18 years based in Asia, I've lived in India, in Germany worked in the states, traveling all the time., Pre pandemic. Since the pandemic, I've been more stable and based primarily here in

[00:02:40] Wayne: Shanghai. 

[00:02:40] Scott: So tell us a bit more about that career journey then. Not just the travel, what got you to where you are now and your passion.

[00:02:46] Wayne: It's been a long journey. , if I go right back to the beginning, it's like going back to when I was born, but 45 years career wise. Started I'm not sure in England if you have apprenticeships, but I started as an electrical fitter mechanic. As an apprentice. And I've always been a hands-on person, so that sort of suited me very nicely.

[00:03:08] Wayne: I didn't go directly to university. That was the later stage of my life. So I did the apprenticeship, I think straight out of high school. Finished high school, age 17. Started working full-time and 45 years later I've just stepped away from the corporate world and now focused entirely on the next 45 years as I like to joke on growing.

[00:03:30] Wayne: My company which is called Skills for Executives. And we essentially focus on working with executive talent to, to help them develop and grow and launch their careers, so to speak. In between, it's been a ride of a lifetime to quote somebody a little bit more famous than myself.

[00:03:49] Scott: Tell us a bit more about the executives journey and challenges that you help them face. What are the kind of common themes or things you focus on with them?

[00:03:58] Wayne: Yeah. They're varied, but. We put a lot of time into working with talent and I don't like the word talent, but we use it because that's what organizations use. So we need to associate with them, but we work with talents of all levels, whether they're junior level, emerging talent, whether they're senior executives moving into C-Suite.

[00:04:17] Wayne: And one of the greatest challenges that we come across is leaders that are still stuck in the 20th century looking at why they can't transition successfully into 21st century. And part of it is that when they became a leader, and these are, these typically are the more senior leaders I'm talking about now.

[00:04:40] Wayne: When they first became a leader, they woke up one morning with a big S painted on their chest, which stood for a superhuman leader. And that's the premise that they thought they moved into leadership under that They knew all the answers. Everybody could go to them for a solution.

[00:04:57] Wayne: And it was a sign of weakness to not live up to that expect. And so in today's world, fast forward now into 20 20, 20 23. The business environment has changed dramatically. In the last 10, 20 years, and leaders can't hold onto that old premise. It just doesn't work anymore. Nobody is smart enough to know all the answers to every challenge that comes their way.

[00:05:25] Wayne: And so what we work with executive talents on is how to make that transition, how to become more vulnerable, how to become more transparent, how to. That, Hey, you know what? I don't know all the answers. I don't even know all the problems. But what I do know is how to bring the collective genius together through the team and work collectively towards a solution.

[00:05:50] Wayne: And for leaders that are struggling, this is sounds so easy, but not really something that they. They can do without some guidance. And that's where we normally come in. So that's one of the primary areas that we see and need for at the moment. And aside from that there's all your typical things about helping people understand themselves better, become more self-aware.

[00:06:12] Wayne: How do they self-regulate? How do they understand the. element that they're working in, et cetera. So there's, you're a coach yourself, and I'm sure you experienced many of these things, but yeah, that, that's really the broad overview of what we do.

[00:06:27] Scott: Great. And I absolutely understand and resonate with the. The transition from I, I may be oversimplify it by calling it management versus leadership, but yeah, I myself, when I started out was like, yeah, I need to have all the answers and I need to, luckily realized quite early on that wasn't gonna work, certainly in the space that I was working in, when you just don't know what's going on

[00:06:47] Scott: But it must be quite hard to, cuz you're effectively asking people to rewire their brains, aren't you? And. As you said the word vulnerable, be really vulnerable from what probably is scary for them. So you must see some resistance for that process despite, you can come in and tell them this is the way to work, but what do you think is the main points of resistance you see where, you know they can't suddenly go walk out of your session and go, yep, I'm gonna think and act differently immediately.

[00:07:15] Wayne: For sure. You're a hundred percent right, Scott. The natural reaction is to deny that, that they do have an issue and that there is a need to change. And not even if they acknowledge the need, what do they do? How do they make that transition? And , that, that's where the coaching comes in because we work with them, we partner with them, we support them to progressively make that transition.

[00:07:36] Wayne: It's not a, it's not the switch, today I'm a 20th century leader, y tomorrow I'll become a 21st century leader. This takes time. It takes a lot of support, not only from us as a coach, but from the people around them, within the organizations to. to give better feedback. It also, your question also highlights that there's no one particular style that has this problem There's a lot of talk about the dark triad of leadership at the moment where we talk about narcissists and we talk about machiavellian type leaders and psychopathic leaders.

[00:08:17] Wayne: These people are alive and well in organizations. And what, I always find interesting about this group is that in many cases, the organization is also aware that these leaders. In existence and they're reluctant to do anything about them because quite often they're very very successful, at least successful in generating results, maybe not successful in leading people.

[00:08:45] Wayne: And if you looked, if you scratch the surface, you'll probably see very high turnover. You'll probably see a lot of absenteeism. You'll probably see a lot of anxiety, stress. as a consequence of that type of leadership. So it really depends on who you're dealing with and how you address it. 

[00:09:03] Scott: I've seen that. It's interesting how you've described that cuz I've always been frustrated when. Organizations seem to tolerate that kind of behavior or are unable or unwilling to deal with it. And it's really interesting that you say, but they get results.

[00:09:18] Scott: And then the next bit of course is yes, but at what cost? And that will come at a human cost for the people below them. And I guess in some organizations, The bosses of the difficult leader either don't know that, aren't aware of it because that leader protects that information from going up or they are aware of it, but turn of blind eye because fundamentally, "yeah, but we'll take the hit because we're making loads of money" and that's quite sad.

[00:09:45] Scott: I'm also interested in the first bit you said, so you've got resistance from some leaders who don't think they've got a problem or don't think that it's worth changing. So what's normally the trigger that brings you in then? Is it I can imagine they're not going.

[00:09:59] Scott: " I need help". Does, the organization like quite dysfunctional and somebody above them all says "I'm getting in an expert to help sort this out. Cause I recognize your leadership style needs to change" or, yeah. What's the normal trigger for flying you in? Hopefully not when it's too late.

[00:10:14] Wayne: It again, there, there's no one common approach. Quite often will be contacted by the HR department or organization within the group who have decided that they're gonna run some initiative and work with leaders across the board. You may be surprised how many leaders themself can see the need but can't make the transit. So they, they may be receiving the feedback, they may be aware of it. They could even be getting told by their partners that, something's not right. You need to make some adjustment. And they're really stuck and they're getting frustrated by it. So sometimes that's the case. I would say if I had to say which is the more prominent, I would say typically it's the organization.

[00:11:00] Wayne: Whether HR or the senior leadership make a call, that results may not be what they need to be. And it's normally not just one leader that they would target. If that's the case, they would normally ask us to speak with multiple leaders to see whether, there's some common issue there.

[00:11:19] Wayne: But essentially, we do two types of things, whether it's the one-on-one or whether it's team coaching, and quite often the team will be an area that we get brought in to talk with. As a, as an initial collective, and then as a subset of that, we'll work one-on-one with individual leaders within the team as a a dual process to move in the direction that they need to.

[00:11:45] Wayne: So it depends on the circumstance, but.

[00:11:47] Scott: and I'm trying to think of a word that sums up those. Was it the dark triad? You called it?

[00:11:52] Scott: how, and, and they still exist, as you said. How common is that still do you think? Are you coming across them in most organizations still?

[00:11:59] Wayne: extremely common . More common with the more senior leaders, so I would say it. Probably the millennial have the opportunity of breaking that, that trend, if it's a trend. The millennial group and definitely Gen Z seem to have a different approach and way of working. But those people that have, and you can have a narcissist leader and they could be the most charming person you've ever.

[00:12:27] Scott: Yeah.

[00:12:28] Wayne: But at the same time, they're reeling those people in that work for them under. , 

[00:12:35] Scott: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:36] Wayne: right? But they could look so wonderful on camera or in front of the press or on stage. look like they're, they've been sent from the heavens type of thing. But working with them day on day is a different scenario.

[00:12:50] Wayne: And so therefore, quite often the narcissist in particular goes unnoticed. The the machiavellian. style of leadership tends to be more obvious and so too the psychopath. So they aren't necessarily people that are. As endearing to other people. They're very much just in it for what they can get out of it.

[00:13:12] Wayne: And not that the narcissist isn't, but they just do it in a different way. They can 

[00:13:16] Wayne: smile while they're doing 

[00:13:18] Wayne: it, in a more, more covert way. And, to add on to the reasons why the organization may not address it. The one thing you didn't mention is quite often the leader of that leader

[00:13:31] Wayne: Has some element of the same approach.

[00:13:34] Scott: we gravitate towards people that are similar to us as well, don't we?

[00:13:37] Scott: Yeah, I'm it sounds awful because I've seen it myself at the impact that kind of person can have on individuals and actually being on the receiving end of some of that, and it sounds like there is hope.

[00:13:49] Scott: Longer term, even if the organizations don't move them on, I was gonna say, get rid of them. That sounds harsh, but in some cases they really probably should. The, eventually they'll die off and the new generations just on the whole won't be like that. Would that be a fair comment, do you think?

[00:14:06] Wayne: That's def. That's definitely the hope. And. I, as a personal belief I believe that will be the outcome maybe a decade from now, because business itself is also evolving, and so this style of leadership is getting less opportunity. . So as we go further into working in virtual teams, working in a hybrid environment having talent that doesn't even necessarily need to sit in the office within 60 kilometers of the office, they could even be in a different country working for.

[00:14:42] Wayne: So there's a whole diverse group now coming into the workforce. Weren't there in the past. So I think there's a different dynamic that'll play out that hopefully we, we can see the end of that dark triad 

[00:14:57] Wayne: as 

[00:14:58] Scott: It, 

[00:14:58] Scott: yeah, it certainly feels like the more junior part of the workforce is. Taking, getting more power or taking more, the whole great resignation that was discussed a lot and people voting with their feet and actually saying, no, I'm not gonna tolerate one of these bosses. I can, I've now got a whole world of opportunities that I can tap into.

[00:15:18] Scott: So that's an interesting transition, I think, onto the hybrid stuff. And we chatted a little bit of that about that before the show. We talked. There seems to be a big feeling and you hear about it in the media again, technically, whether it's slight pinch of salt that managers want people back in the office.

[00:15:33] Scott: And what do you think are the reasons behind that? Is it I'll just, I won't give my thoughts. I'll ask you what do you think the reasons are for that kind of urgency or that feeling of I want everyone back and you hear some quite senior execs and some big companies saying, " I expect you to be in the office this amount of time now".

[00:15:49] Wayne: Yeah. And there's some very senior people, my wife works at Disney. And you've probably seen the press with Bob Iger coming back in as the ceo. And even, Bob has a belief that there's a value in people working in the office at least part of the time. So I think there's a genuine intent for many leaders to try and leverage. the opportunity of working together and not lose the dynamic that comes out of that. Now, of course that all works beautifully when that is the focal point. The challenge that I see is many people today are saying I hear you, I understand you. I even may agree with you, but why didn't that play out when we're actually working in the office, right?

[00:16:39] Wayne: So now that we're not in the office, you want us to come back. Is that really the reason or is the reason that you just don't trust what we're doing outside the office, working from home and to be honest, I would say it's a mix, right? There is that degree of mistrust. I can't see. You looking at your computer and typing in what you need to type or doing what you need to do, and therefore there's a feeling that you may not be working the hours you need to work, regardless of the fact that the feedback that so many studies are producing at the moment to say people are actually working harder when they work from home.

[00:17:18] Wayne: They're actually achieving more, they're more productive they're more efficient. people as leaders, particularly those that have grown through a period where this is not the norm, are probably making or finding it hardest to transition, will that change over time? I believe so. I don't, personally, I don't see that we will ever return to a hundred percent working in the office.

[00:17:43] Wayne: in the future. I think at best we'll be a hybrid,

[00:17:46] Wayne: So we'll have that mixture whether you're working, because technology has enabled that to happen. The pandemic proved that it could happen, and now people have had a taste of it. And it's probably unlikely that we will go all the way back, wind back the clock, so to speak, and go back to that period of normality where we were five days, 4, 5, 6 days in the office.

[00:18:12] Scott: Yeah. Yeah. And as you said, there's gonna be multiple reasons and trust is, as you said, probably one of the biggest ones depending on that leadership. And I've always not always, but the thinking around the old way of measuring work. And you mentioned 20 century versus 21st, you know that you, I'm sure you've heard the term knowledge worker, which is one I use, which is probably getting a little bit dated now but work is a lot more intangible these days, depending on the nature of the work, but office-based work is not about the amount of typing you do on your keyboard, but there's, leaders expect that as if you're at your keyboard, you're active and you're delivering value. But as we know, that's rarely the case.

[00:18:50] Scott: And actually, I think they're still, brain is still wired into hands-on keyboard equals productivity, when actually we should be focusing on the outcomes of people's work, what they're delivering. And that stuff is hard to measure on a lot of work, which I don't think the problem's any different from when they're in the office.

[00:19:05] Scott: But I think the mindset was, "oh, because I can see your desk. I'm comfortable. You're working" versus "now I can't see you at your desk. I'm not comfortable. You're working". And yeah, I could rabbit on, but I think that's missing the point, isn't it? Around actually. What is "work", and I'm doing air quotes for people who can't see me.

[00:19:21] Wayne: Yeah, look very true. And, the term bums in seats has been around a long time and a lot of leaders lead through that, that metaphor. There are some challenges that do come up with leading remote teams and leading hybrid teams as there are for the people. that are working remotely and working in a hybrid environment.

[00:19:43] Wayne: So if I'm an executive talent the group that I work with, one of the things they're struggling with is how does my boss know how well I'm doing When he can't see me or she can't see me anymore, how can I have that personal connect? Where I can actually shake the person's hand and sit down and have a coffee with them when I'm not actually in the office anymore.

[00:20:07] Wayne: And how can I ensure therefore that I'm not missing out on opportunities and that we're more evident when we're all in the office working together. Yeah. So there is that dichotomy if you like. Of working in this new environment that we have to adjust to. And so for the leader, they also need to be mindful of how they deal with that issue.

[00:20:33] Wayne: So all of a sudden we as humans, we don't like uncertainty. Our brains, this is one of the things neuroscientists agree on. We, our brains don't like uncertainty. And so all of a sudden we are now working in this world where many more things are uncertain that we haven't experienced in our careers before. And so we have to be able to make that transition and adjustment to be able to cope with that.

[00:21:00] Scott: Yeah. 

[00:21:01] Wayne: And so that's one of the big challenges for everybody at the moment.

[00:21:05] Scott: Yeah. And that is linked to the leadership's approach as well, isn't it? In terms of how they. Communicate and demonstrate the trust they have with their remote workers. And they need to be in the right mindset that we've been discussing at the start of the show. Cuz otherwise it's gonna, I can imagine it's gonna be toxic.

[00:21:22] Scott: It's like, "why were you not at your keyboard"? And you've, I've heard some horror stories in the media about companies now installing tracking software that is spying on their employees how much time, hands on keyboard, looking at them through the webcam, , that just does not build trust, 

[00:21:35] Wayne: Hmm. No, it destroys it. And particularly for the Gen Z group, what we're seeing is that they don't tolerate it. So they're very comfortable in just saying look, that's, yep, that doesn't work for me. And I'm outta here. Thank you.

[00:21:50] Scott: So let's say. Bosses want staff to come into the office more for the right reasons. What do you think are the ways to encourage them back and if the employees want to come back? Of course,

[00:22:02] Wayne: Yeah, so I think this is one of the big questions that all organizations need to be asking themselves at the moment. What's the incentive that is not going to demotivate or derail? The good work that the groups do. What's the incentive to bring people back and how will we convey that message and what will that look like when they come back? So there's a few considerations that I believe leadership needs to be asking itself. If they want people to come back, do they want people to be there? Five days a week like it used to be. If they do, that's gonna be a bigger stretch, is my feeling. I believe we will end up with this hybrid arrangement at least in the shorter term, and maybe it will go further longer term. So if they do want people to come back, then they've gotta think about what needs to change. How do we. that journey back into the office for whatever period. Something that the individual is happy to do when they wake up in the morning instead of staying in their pajamas and going into the, to their temporary office in their house and logging onto the keyboard or onto the computer.

[00:23:23] Wayne: Now they have to go back into that old routine. go through their transport to get to the office, et cetera. And it's that shift in mindset. So what are we going to do? We've played with a number of different experiments in the last several years. In actual fact we started in the experiment just at the top or the opening of Covid November, 2019.

[00:23:46] Wayne: And we started looking. coincidentally, not intentionally, but coincidentally, we started looking at Daniel Pink's book called Drive motivation 3.0, and within that book they have. He focuses on three areas, autonomy, mastery, and purpose. And so within my team across Asia Pacific, we had 30 odd people spread around different countries in Asia Pacific.

[00:24:11] Wayne: We started to introduce a number of interventions under those three, three banners just to see, what was the real impact of doing some of this stuff? Did it. Help. Did people feel better? Did they feel more psychologically safe? And so forth. And 18 months later, after we concluded, we didn't only stick with pink's drive book, we also Worked on Perma from Martin Seligman.

[00:24:35] Wayne: We worked on Barbara Frederickson's positivity. So we had a number of different angles that we were working on and interventions. 18 months afterwards the results were very clear. People were happier. was almost zero. weren't leaving their jobs. So our turnover, which was reasonably high to be honest, cuz where we were based in one of our main locations. So there was a very positive impact and that led us then to thinking about, so what else? Could we do apart from looking at how we motivate individuals and how they motivate themself rather than how we motivate them, but how can they be inspired and what else could we do? And we came up with this approach that we took out of marketing and sales out of their cap actually, and looking at the operation.

[00:25:25] Wayne: And we said, when we look at our stakeholders, particularly our client base stakeholders, we often look at the customer journey. We look at the touchpoints along that journey and how they're engaged at each of those touchpoints with our products, our services, our company, our team, et cetera.

[00:25:43] Wayne: And based on that, we then make adjustments so that we can improve that engagement. We can make sure that they feel that they're getting. value for whatever they're connecting to. And so what we did was we turned that to an internal process and we looked at developing for the team, our internal journey map, and the touchpoints that each person within the team goes through on their daily work life.

[00:26:13] Wayne: And what we found was it. A fantastic outcome. It if we look at just one aspect of what had changed, the company we were with did their annual employee engagement surveys. And whilst our group in the last few years ranked in the top quartile we saw a significant improve. After the introduction of this process.

[00:26:38] Wayne: So the process is quite simple. We got the teams together. We had a workshop environment. We sat down for, I think it was two or three days mapping out very specifically what are those, what is the journey for the whole team? What are the touchpoints? And then we got them. to look at each touchpoint and assess their level of satisfaction with it.

[00:27:03] Wayne: So would they rank it as they're happy with it? They're not happy with it, or it's, yeah. It's okay. It's somewhere in between. And so what that then gave us was a very clear picture of those specific areas that would be low hanging fruit that we could address. Yeah. And resisting the temptation to step in and put my s back on my chest. We, we asked the members of the team, if anyone would be interesting after we collectively prioritize which ones to work on. We ended up, we shortlisted it down to five and we decided to make projects of those five. We asked anyone in the team if they would like to come forward and lead. The project to work on those improvements.

[00:27:48] Wayne: And fortunately, we did have, and then we said to the rest of the people we could nominate where you're going to work and which team you need to work in, but it would be far more effective we believe if you decide yourself. . And the only thing, the only guidelines we put to it is we need to try and balance to some extent, so we don't have everyone in one team and no one in the others.

[00:28:08] Wayne: And that had. really positive outcomes. Now, of course, after that we also had to give some guidelines about expectations. How long the projects would work for, what support they needed, what reporting they needed to come back and what period, et cetera. But that's all normal leadership management process.

[00:28:28] Wayne: But the actual exercise really opened our eyes to what might be possible and how you could change the dynamic of people's mindsets just by offering them more. In this case, it was more acknowledgement that they were being heard and underst. Yeah, it was the acknowledgement that we truly wanted to make it even better or as good as it can be.

[00:28:54] Wayne: And from that, they gravitated towards probably what I like to call as my aam, the all-star team. 

[00:29:02] Scott: Yeah. It's taking that time out, isn't it? To say, actually as a team, how can things improve? How can we improve our own environment rather than just being so busy and focused on the customer, which is important, but if you get your house in order a bit better, you can serve the customer even better, can't you?

[00:29:16] Scott: Yeah.

[00:29:17] Wayne: Ab

[00:29:18] Wayne: absolutely. And that was one of the outcomes,

[00:29:20] Scott: Yeah. Unsurprisingly,

[00:29:22] Wayne: Was the customer le the level of customer satisfaction skyrocketed. As you say, not

[00:29:26] Wayne: surprising. 

[00:29:27] Scott: give people the responsibility to fix it themselves as well. Not, oh, someone else will do this for me. Cuz I've run workshops before where they thought I was just gonna fix the problem for them, but I'm thinking actually these people know how to fix it themselves, but they don't feel that they can.

[00:29:42] Scott: Yeah. That's interesting. Great. One of the questions I ask all my guests is, if you could take one book with you to a desert island, what would it be?

[00:29:49] Wayne: Oh gosh. So you've asked the wrong person. , I'm an avid

[00:29:53] Wayne: reader. I digest

[00:29:55] Scott: boat's capsized and you've saved one book and you're there for the rest of your life.

[00:29:59] Wayne: therefore I'd have to choose a big one. So it floated well. Gosh.

[00:30:02] Wayne: I've just finished a really interesting one, so I'll just refer to that one. It's a book how Emotions Work, and I, that's not the exact title but it's written by an author. Author, she's a psychologist, neuroscientists Lisa Feldman Barrett and it's really looking at the latest thinking around the brain.

[00:30:25] Wayne: So she does a lot of study on the brain, but in particular on the area of emotions. And this is what's really interesting about this is it fits nicely to my 20th century, 21st century thinking. back in the 20th century we had a whole raft of scientists with their limited technology to support them coming up with their answer on how emotions are created and what the current thinking is.

[00:30:55] Wayne: It's completely turning that on. Its. . And yeah, it's a very interesting book if you have an interest in that area. But not a short book but highly interesting and really gets you thinking about what's triggering each of your emotions and then the associated feeling that goes with that emotion.

[00:31:14] Scott: Great. I'll get that linked in the show notes. So if anyone wants to work with you and wants your help, how do they get, what's the best way to get hold of.

[00:31:21] Wayne: Yeah, probably through LinkedIn would be the most visible way. . So you can search my name, but there might be other Wayne Brown's. Certainly if you look in the science journals, there's a lot of, Wayne Brown seem to be writing a lot of papers. They're not me way above my, my knowledge level.

[00:31:38] Wayne: But if you look at Wayne for Wayne Brown on LinkedIn, and I have the suffix instead of my name, the coach. So that's how you'll know it's me and our website is The four is the letter four.

[00:31:55] Scott: Brilliant.

[00:31:56] Scott: And I will put those links in as well in the notes. So Wayne, it's been great chatting. Thank you for being on the show.

[00:32:02] Wayne: Scott, it's been a pleasure. I've probably spoken way too much, but thank you for the opportunity and I hope your listeners get some value out of what we've been talking about. 

[00:32:10] Scott: A big, thank you for listening to the Rebel Diaries show your time is precious, so it is appreciated. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to hit that subscribe button in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss the next one. There's a new episode every Monday morning, ideal for your commute to work or early morning walk. 

[00:32:27] Scott: Until next time, take care be a rebel and deliver work with impact.