[00:00:00] Scott: Hi, I'm Scott Fulton, the host of the Rebel Diaries podcast. This show will help you learn how to make work better for you, your colleagues and the organization you work for. I believe the modern workplace is broken for too many people with leaders and their teams, drowning in corporate complexity, information overload, and unnecessary levels of stress. 

[00:00:18] Scott: Having spent over 20 years leading disruptive high-performing teams who have won international awards for their impact. I've now dedicated my career to helping coach and train leaders and teams to deliver more value and impact at work whilst reducing the risk of burnout, overload, and wasted effort. 

[00:00:34] Scott: This podcast is dedicated to you and thousands like you who know work can and should be better.

[00:00:39] Scott: You'll get tips and insights from me as well as the amazing guests I invite to be the show, many of them have disrupted their industries and are thought leaders, speakers, and authors who have fascinating stories and advice to share. 

[00:00:50] Scott: Thank you for listening. I'm Scott Fulton and welcome to the Rebel Diaries show. 

[00:00:55] Emily: Two of the most heavily posted in and used channels within the business are the dog and cat channel.

[00:01:00] Emily: And some people are in both, and obviously some people are in, one does it mix? Can you be a dog and a cat lover at the same time?

[00:01:06] Emily: I would say that I've made connections with people I've never met in real life. And in fact, probably for the first eight, nine months , I didn't even meet my boss not face to face, only on Zoom. 

[00:01:16] Emily: And then it's just gonna feel disingenuous when they come into the organization and the experience they have isn't what they expected and it doesn't match up as as great as the office is going to be, as great as the benefits package is. If it's not lived and breathed by the people that work within the organization, especially the management community, then it's just not gonna happen.

[00:01:37] Scott: Hi, and welcome to this week's episode. On this one, I'm talking to Emily. She's the Director of Employee Experience at Improbable. A British based metaverse technology company. She's attracted to working in startups and scale-ups due to the fast pace and opportunities and challenges that it offers for employee engagement. Previously she spent a large part of her career working for virgin media on engagement and internal communications.

[00:02:02] Scott: Hi Emily. Welcome to the Rebel Diaries podcast.

[00:02:05] Emily: Nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

[00:02:08] Scott: Can you tell us a bit about what it's like working Improbable? You've been there a few years now. What the kind of biggest challenges and opportunities that you come across day to day in your job?

[00:02:17] Emily: So working Improbable, like any startup. Is crazy is ever changing is, extremely busy. Lots and lots of challenges constantly. This is my second startup. So I was working out on Fido at FinTech. This is my first entry into the world of the metaverse and online experiences.

[00:02:36] Emily: So it was all new to me when I we, when I began at Improbable. But yeah, day to day exciting. We work on some really great, interesting projects that, keep the kind of passionate employee experience, engagement, internal comms, juices flowing and it's great.

[00:02:51] Scott: And what attracted you to startups then, if this is your second?

[00:02:54] Emily: It's the pace. Yeah, it's the pace. I've done big businesses and to be fair, they, working at Virgin was amazing. The culture when I grew up in Virgin Media went through rebrand and lots and lots of change in the business and worked in various different areas and it was fantastic and it was brilliant.

[00:03:12] Emily: And it was my yeah. Entry into my career. But since working in growing, fast, changing super fast growth to be fair, startups I don't think I could go back. The scope to make a difference in the space in which I work in this kind of environment is very different to working in a larger kind of corporate is more established.

[00:03:36] Emily: The ability to bring in and influence is much higher. There's much more opportunity to do so in, in this kind of environment. So that's what kind of floats my boat..

[00:03:45] Scott: Why do you think there's more opportunity? Is it just different culture? What's the key thing for you there? 

[00:03:50] Emily: I'm not expecting every startup to feel exactly the same. I think I've chosen wisely in terms of the types of places that I've been working. I love tech. I think working in a tech business, just gives you an opportunity to be involved in innovation and to work with really clever people who are interested in kind of new ways of doing things and new opportunities, and nothing is ever done..

[00:04:14] Emily: And I think that's important to the type of culture that I'd wanna continue working in. And what we get at, ImImprobableis that there's, there are open ears everywhere to, to new ways of helping people have the best experience in the workplace. And also logistically there's just less people.

[00:04:32] Emily: There's less people to get stuff done. If you want to do something and you wanna do something innovative, you've gotta just get it done yourself because nobody else is gonna do it. And it means that you probably get more hands on it, on projects and new ideas than you might do.

[00:04:47] Emily: If there was, a much, much larger kind of area working on a particular issue or on employee experience as a whole. I think there's opportunity I think in kind of the startup world that I haven't kinda experienced elsewhere.

[00:05:02] Scott: And how wide is your scope then? So you are Director of Employee Experience, how is that from literally onboarding right through to leaving the organization? 

[00:05:10] Emily: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. So my team in theory looks after the kind of employee journey end to end. We do look at employer. And evp so how we talk about the business externally, how we attract talent. I have a fantastic person working in my team, Greg who is building working with really clever people to put together fantastic brand messaging to, to explain what it's like to work for Improbable and to help people can really know what it's like under the lid.

[00:05:37] Emily: We do work on onboarding. Yep. So we work closely with the talent acquisition team to to bring handover people from that experience where they're, they've signed on the dotted line and they come into the business. And making sure that experience is lives up to expectations, but we're not overselling the dream.

[00:05:54] Emily: Like anywhere I've ever worked and I'm likely to work nothing's. And, there are challenges in terms of day to day experience. It's important I think to be realistic in terms of what working in a kind of fast scaling ever changing, growing businesses really but also to, to help people feel like they belong.

[00:06:13] Emily: And that's another part of my team, diversity, inclusion and belonging comes in. Holly is new to my team. She's come from Sky Betting and Gaming to look at trying to make our business as inclusive as we can possibly be. 

[00:06:25] Emily: That means everything from gender inclusivity to nero diversity to economic background. We want to make sure that working in this exciting tech space is as accessible to as many people as possible because all we care about is talent and bringing fantastic people on board who are, want to achieve the dream that our CEO Herman has painted and make sure that's important.

[00:06:49] Emily: Yeah. The employer brand also learning and development. So how we bring to life this learning and teaching culture at in Improbableto make sure that. It, you don't just kinda stop growing when you come into our business, that it's an opportunity for you to focus on what matters to you and that your development is in your hands, but we are gonna give you as as many resources as humanly possible to enable you to do that.

[00:07:13] Emily: And that's not just the traditional kind of classroom training that's. Accessible information or in, in so many different channels and formats. And on also leveraging the fantastic talent that we've got internally as well in terms of mentoring and coaching. So it's a journey.

[00:07:27] Emily: Also my team looks after workplace experience and that team are really focused. Designing the kind of physical workspace that is suitable for today's working experience. We work flexibly. At Improbablethere are people who work completely remotely. There are people that come into the office on a daily, regular basis. But what I'm focused on is purposeful time in the office. So I don't want people to feel like they need to come in because of presenteeism. I want it to be because they need access to specific tech. They wanna focus on their wellbeing. It's important for them to have a social connection with their team. So yeah, it's wide kind of ranging kind of team focus. And then obviously we work with other members of the people team in terms of business partnering and, reward and recognition.

[00:08:18] Emily: And it's hugely important. We, we work in a matrix style so that we touch every area of employee experience..

[00:08:24] Scott: So that, yeah, that is a wide remit. How do you prioritize what to put your focus on?

[00:08:28] Emily: As with any team I'm sure, especially in a support function, if we are not supporting the goals of the business, then it's pointless. Ultimately the overall vision of Improbable needs to be reflected in what we are trying to achieve and how we are helping the business to achieve that.

[00:08:40] Emily: So whether that's acquiring the right talent to achieve our goals whether that's recognizing people to deliver on those goals once they're within the business, retaining that talent, making sure that everybody stays well and looks out for themselves and feels safe and feels like they are, they really belong within the organization and they want to stick around.

[00:09:01] Emily: Ultimately it's that acid test. If it doesn't if a project that we're working on doesn't really connect to the goals of the organization, it's pointless. We regularly can plan to re-plan to make sure that we're aligned with, the business direction and strategic messages and ultimately our exact team are trying to deliver on. 

[00:09:20] Scott: And presumably you are you part of that exec team then you work closely with and

[00:09:23] Emily: So I work into the Chief People Officer. And on the People Leadership Team and then, and she Natalia sits on the executive team. So yeah, we have a direct line into the decision making, of the overall organization. Is fantastic to, to be part of those conversations, to understand.

[00:09:44] Emily: How the business is looking to succeed and, the important areas that we need to focus on in order to help that happen.

[00:09:50] Scott: So in terms of scale can you give us an idea of how big the company is, how many employees there are, roughly what the throughput of employees like? So how many new hires you're getting, are you growing, expanding, that kind of stuff.

[00:10:03] Emily: Yeah, of course. So I joined in Improbable maybe six, seven hundred. . And I've been here for two and a half years and we're around the thousand mark. But really weirdly and I guess interestingly rather than weirdly the vast majority of our business had joined post Covid. So they've joined the business remotely, which is super interesting when you think about employee experience on onboarding, because the vast majority of people have interviewed remotely.

[00:10:29] Emily: They have actually never been into our office spaces. And that's a very different experience for people nowadays. It's certainly something that the vast majority of people wouldn't have expected to have happened before, before the pandemic. So we had to think about employee experience very differently and culture very differently when people aren't seeing each other face to face every day.

[00:10:50] Emily: We are still growing very fast. We still have a large number of people joining every month. And those onboarding cohorts are super important to the business cause we want to make sure that they get up to speed as, as fast as possible. With Improbable, with any startup we change often.

[00:11:06] Emily: We're we are thinking about kind of the major projects that we're working on, depending on the customers that we're working with. The focus of the business. It's important that we make sure that people understand, their part in the puzzle. Their. Where there were impacts what we're ultimately trying to achieve in the business.

[00:11:22] Emily: And we have people all over the world. We have people who don't ever come into the office who could be based Central Europe in the US even in Asia. And then we have, a. majority of the organization with within the UK. And my team also look after our social events and onboarding experiences.

[00:11:38] Emily: We have hybrid events. We have in-office events. We were just taking part in Lego building. Evening. We've had board game evenings and Terranium building, but we've also had remote events. Where we've sent our employees ingredients and they've cooked along health healthy meals together.

[00:11:58] Emily: And, last year being a kind of a metaverse company, we wanted to eat our own dog food and have a remote holiday party which went down brilliantly. And people were connecting, speaking to each other and they, they'd never seen each other face to face before.

[00:12:13] Scott: Quick interruption, just in case you haven't heard the term eat our own dog food it's sometimes called dogfooding and it's used in the tech industry, to basically say you're using your own software that you expect your customers to use. So in Emily's case, the company was using its own software. Its metaverse software to organize and meet each other in the virtual world. 

[00:12:35] Scott: I forgot to ask Emily to clarify that for anybody listening, who didn't know what that meant during the recording. Hopefully that's helpful on with the show. 

[00:12:43] Emily: Obviously, we were on Zooms all the time. Quite a lot of the business kind of work within their specific areas and not like meeting different people all the time. A support function like the people division, you're always talking to different people around the business. But the remote holiday party gave us an opportunity to connect people who wouldn't necessarily have have spoken before, which was great.

[00:13:01] Emily: But yeah, it's, it is a challenge. It's not, Easy to keep people connected and feel like they belong within an organization where they're not having those kind of water cooler kitchen conversations and they're not bumping into each other in the corridor. And we've gone from a having lunches all together in the office every day to providing people with a prepaid card so that they can then use that benefit on their lunch or on anything else that they want to buy which has given them tomorrow, given to them on a monthly basis.

[00:13:34] Emily: So we've had to adapt our experience and our offering and our benefits. Sweet so that we suit this ever-changing kind of working experience for people.

[00:13:43] Scott: Yes. Fascinating. I was gonna ask how you manage the. The people who never come in the office versus the people that are there. So this hybrid arrangement, so video calling and people making food and kind of cooking together

[00:13:55] Emily: yeah, and I think one of the most important things are the digital platforms that we use, so we're heavy Slack users . And Slack is not just for kind of work and projects, but it's also for social. So we have geographical channels we have interest channels. Actually two of the most heavily posted in and used channels within the business are the dog and cat channel.

[00:14:17] Emily: And some people are in both, and obviously some people are in, one does it mix? Can you be a dog and a cat lover at the same time? But. When people are onboarded into Improbable, they're told about some of these channels. They're told about the Parenthood channel. They're told about the kind of women at Improbable Channel and there's lots of conversation happening constantly in those online channels that which connects people.

[00:14:38] Emily: I would say that I've made connections with people I've never met in real life. And in fact, probably for the first eight, nine months I never, I didn't even meet my boss not face to face, only on Zoom. So when we met for the first time, it was, it. It was weird because we almost knew each other already, but we hadn't actually met face to face.

[00:14:57] Emily: I imagine it's similar to some of the dating experiences that people had over, over Zoom during the pandemic. But yeah, it's it's been something that as a business we've had to work around and, but everybody's been really up for doing that and it's given people. A work life balance that we've never had before.

[00:15:18] Emily: We have a level of flexibility, which is so important to maintaining your interests outside of work as well as work because we live, we work to live rather than live to work.

[00:15:32] Scott: So in terms of obviously reaching that, that workforce, you've got Slack and you talked about those channels, but surely there's an element of relying on leadership and to be your voice as well from your team.

[00:15:42] Scott: Do you. Worked with the leaders in the organization to help communicate and engage employees?

[00:15:47] Emily: Yeah, absolutely. I've actually written a blog on this from an internal comms perspective around the internal comms kind of engagement function Should be not seen and not but heard. Leaders advocating on behalf of the people team and having messages not all come.

[00:16:02] Emily: From the people division is hugely important because you want advocates, you want sponsors of some of the bigger employee experience initiatives that are happening. So for example my team look after employee engagement and the measurement of that. So we use the tool Peacon to regularly take pulses of the business and understand the organization.

[00:16:21] Emily: It's not the responsibility of my team to make sure that those messages and that feedback is played back to the people who have given them in the business. It's the responsibility of the management community and as much as we facilitate and help empower our managers to own that data and talk to their teams about that data.

[00:16:41] Emily: It definitely isn't the people division banging the drum about how important the Pecon survey is and the data that comes out of that. So that kind of goes for any of the initiatives. So especially from a diversity inclusion perspective it makes sense that our leaders are bought into some of the key commitments that we're making from a diversity, inclusion and belonging perspective. And as much as my team are experts in the, in this space we cannot be the voice of this because that will not make sure that, change happens within the organization. And that we do truly create an environment and a culture where people can belong.

[00:17:18] Emily: In the same way with our kind of employer brand. It's not my team that are doing all of the interviews for people coming into the business. It's the management of the teams and those that are recruiting, that are speaking to candidates as well as the talent and acquisition team. And it's important that they are living and breathing our values as they're talking to people who they want to join our organization.

[00:17:39] Emily: And if they're not, they don't sound like. , they're genuinely part of our culture and they believe in the mission of the organization and they are, they fit, the business in terms of behaviors and values. Then it's just not gonna work. And then it's just gonna feel disingenuous when they come into the organization and the.

[00:17:57] Emily: Experience they have isn't what they expected and it doesn't match up as as great as the office is going to be, as great as the benefits package is. If it's not lived and breathed by the people that work within the organization, especially the management community, then it's just not gonna happen.

[00:18:14] Emily: It's just not gonna work.

[00:18:15] Scott: Have you got any war stories you can share? So not necessarily from current employment, but previous ones where you just had some real challenges, real difficulties, things didn't maybe go to plan. Anything, any learning that you can share with the audience.

[00:18:29] Emily: Yeah, of course. So I think one of, one of my biggest learnings that actually was when I was working at Cantar huge business. So many different people in so many different places around the world. Lots of different organizations stuck together from years and years of m and a.

[00:18:43] Emily: And I came in with a kind of a fantastic mandate to, to make sure that everybody was engaged within the organization and understood the mission of the business, their part in the story, and that they we, they were listened to and can feedback. And, started coming up with big plans and trying to roll out, lots of really impactful initiatives right across the world.

[00:19:05] Emily: And it was finding it very difficult to have traction and, have any impact. Because I was aiming it at so many thousands of people and I was only really scratching the surface. And. I sat back and I thought, "I just don't feel like I'm having impact."

[00:19:22] Emily: I don't feel like the work that I'm doing my team are doing is even scratching the surface of some of the challenges that we've got. And actually there were a couple of things that I learned from that, that we went on to do that, that where as a result of kind of having that frustration with impact, one of them was, Manager capability and manager behaviors are so important anywhere in any organization. Managers make or, break employee experience. As they say, you leave a, you don't leave a business, you leave a manager. And I decided I'd come up with a board game that managers play which has them talking about the different behaviors that work in that happened in the workplace.

[00:20:01] Emily: They don't talk about it in terms of it must happen this way. This is a directive from leadership. It's more about "if this happened, how would it make you feel?" Or, " what impact might it have on the team as you, as an individual? "Or "have you ever experienced this kind of thing? "And actually rather than rolling this out across the entire organization, I went into pockets around the world.

[00:20:21] Emily: I went into India. I did a tour of our Indian offices. I went into Dubai. And I created pilots and in India, actually, they got so enthusiastic about it that they blew up this board game into a kind of twister style floor mat. And they had the managers actually standing on the kind of snakes and ladder style board as they moved through and answered the questions live.

[00:20:43] Emily: And actually, once I'd got those pilots underway and that initial feedback and people were really positive about it. And I went where the door was already open. I then came back and said, "Look what, what impact this has had?" And the doors cut, it started opening across the rest of the organization.

[00:21:00] Emily: And actually that's one of the, the biggest learnings I've had in working in any size business really is that rather than trying to boil the ocean, go where the doors open, go where there's enthusiasm. Go where people are already asking for your support and know, have that impact, create those case studies, and then go back out into the organization and showcase this, the impact that's been had.

[00:21:23] Emily: And I bang on my team. All the time about data and making sure that, whatever we do, we can prove it's worth. Because ultimately we are a, we are dragging costs from the organization rather than bringing in revenue. So we need to justify our existence at every point within the journey.

[00:21:40] Scott: Yeah. Interested to what you said there about where the door already being pushed open. I think it was a talk I saw while ago, and a lady was, I think she was a psychologist. She was talking about you can sap all your energy trying to convert those completely disengaged people that you're never going to win over.

[00:21:56] Scott: And she likened it to like politics, trying to get, go for the people that are on the fence or closer to the side. You want 'em to be on rather than. Literally trying and putting all your effort into those that are never going to change, cuz that can just derail everything and there's always gonna be those people in organizations isn't there?

[00:22:14] Emily: Yeah, absolutely. And you're never gonna please everyone. And I think that's a, that's another conversation I've had on a number of different occasions, currently with my team in that, that's why we need to use lots of different channels to communicate.

[00:22:27] Emily: That's why we need to create lots of different experiences for people because not everything is gonna suit everyone. And actually I'm really interested in the concept of. Of the marketing concept of looking at personas understanding the types of people within the organization so that you can then start to target the, different groups depending on what kind of experience they want and something that we're launching at the moment.

[00:22:52] Emily: Around choice based employee experience called flex first as opposed to remote first employee experience or digital first. We are calling it flex first because it needs to make sense for. Individuals, it's personalizable. You can in the long run choose the benefits that suit you.

[00:23:10] Emily: You can choose when you come into the office, you can choose where you work in the office, depending on your the use case that you're trying to fulfill. You can access difference of. Areas of support when you need it. Making it demand based as opposed to pushing out lots of different material that might not be suitable for individuals at a given time.

[00:23:27] Scott: Yeah, cuz they could get overloaded with stuff that's just, there's too much or half of this isn't relevant to me. 

[00:23:32] Emily: Is a huge piece is a really important, topic that is talked being talked an awful lot about at the moment.

[00:23:38] Scott: I was gonna ask you actually, and you've mentioned it now, so that the, there will be people that don't want to use Slack, I'm sure, to, they don't have a cat or a dog and they don't wanna engage with that. And I'd led an intranet. Brought it into the organization with social elements and there were people that were like, I never want to use any of this stuff.

[00:23:55] Scott: That's okay. But yeah, then you, as you said, you have to find other ways then to engage with them in ways that are gonna work for them. Because there's some people that just want to come in, do a job and go home. They don't care about all the other social bits and everything else, but they still need to know the direction of the organization, how they play a part in that.

[00:24:11] Emily: Absolutely. And that's where channels come in and not just online digital channels, but you need to use your managers. As channels, you need to loo use influencers around the business. Those who do ask the questions in the town halls, those that want to give feedback in pecan surveys and leverage those people who may not always be your biggest fans to help them understand actually the reasoning behind change Be behind introducing different experiences behind kind of changes around employee experience in the business so that at least it's understood even if it's not agreed with

[00:24:42] Emily: We know that not coming into the office all the time. Or not becoming a kind of totally in-office business isn't going to work for everyone. Some people do want to be in the office and they want that kind of atmosphere, that they might be GenZ, they might be work, living in a kind of studio flat or in a shed house with lots of people having to live off one wifi connection that it.

[00:25:07] Emily: Isn't just isn't up to scratch and they want to actually see people and have a social life. And, we encourage those those members of staff to come in and use that as a reason to come into the office and connect with people who are on the same life path, are on that part of their career journey.

[00:25:23] Emily: And we have an example of that with the kind of grad intake that we have on a regular basis. They do want to connect. They do want to have more of a kind of a social experience with those who are on the same journey as them. And it's important to recognize that everybody is different.

[00:25:36] Scott: And do you find a lot of your intakes, are people who've worked in startups before, or do you find some who've, like it's their first startup experience, do they, do you find any people find that quite difficult, that transition, that change? Or is it, not a shock to the system for them?

[00:25:51] Emily: I think there's more and more. So now that we're, we've reached that kind of thousand person mark. We are more of a mature scale up, I would say. We have got more established like employee experience, benefits, processes systems. We are maybe more attractive to the slightly more risk averse person who has been used to working in more of a kind of established corporate.

[00:26:16] Emily: So at the same time, coming and joining in Improbable means that you take a piece of the pie, really. So everybody who comes into our business accrues equity within the organization.

[00:26:27] Emily: At the point where we have a funding round and we manage to have a secondary, or, we IPO at some point or we're bought by a bigger business that will benefit the individual who, individuals who were working for Improbable. It is a different experience, and that does appeal to people who want to have a vest.

[00:26:43] Emily: They have a vested interest in making sure that the business is successful. I think early on, earlier on those people who were the old guard of Improbable who came in when it, was a few people huddled round a desk in a barn trying to make Improbable work.

[00:26:57] Emily: It is a different experience now. And now this stage of a startup scale up isn't for everybody I've met from working in startups over the last few years. I've met people who they live for that first 50 50 person funding round. Regularly at that stage of a startup where it's all kind of all hands on deck and kind of the person who does the talent acquisition also does the accounting.

[00:27:22] Emily: There's somebody who's doing sales that that also does the it, it's. It that I think it does float some people's boats, but we're, we've moved forward in that stage now so that we are more of a kind of established business. But I would hate to think that we are becoming too corporate.

[00:27:40] Emily: But I'm sure some of the people who I work with would look at us and think that we are

[00:27:47] Scott: Brilliant. Thank you. One of the things I ask all my guests, if you could take one book with you to a desert island, what would it be?

[00:27:53] Emily: Oh wow. Oh, I'm in the middle of reading. That Never Split The Difference. And it's a fantastic book about negotiation, and I have ju, I've used it multiple times, even in the. I've read about 70% of it and I've already used it an awful lot and I've found it so interesting to think about human behavior and what influences human behavior, whether I would be using those negotiation skills on a desert island, maybe not.

[00:28:21] Emily: I'd maybe have to think of a another book if I was gonna keep myself entertained forever. But yeah, certainly that, Is this something that I definitely recommend..

[00:28:30] Scott: That's Chris Voss, isn't it? I've got the audio books. Brilliant. I got the physical book as well. Yeah, I wanna get him on my show, but I haven't tried reaching out yet. I need to get a bit bigger first. Yeah, he's the FBI hostage negotiator, isn't he.

[00:28:41] Emily: Yes, 

[00:28:41] Scott: Excellent. I'll get that in the show notes. So if anyone wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that?

[00:28:46] Emily: Yeah reach out to me on LinkedIn. That, that's how you got in touch with me. I I'm always available. I love to talk about what we are achieving as a business, what we are achieving as a team. I'm always wanting to learn. That's why I talking to different people in this kind of environment because, we are never done in terms of this world it's so exciting to see what other kind of businesses are doing and new experiences that we can learn from and take into our own organization. Yeah, get in touch.

[00:29:13] Scott: Brilliant. I'll put link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes. Emily, thank you for being on the show. It's been great chatting.

[00:29:19] Emily: It's been great. 

[00:29:20] Scott: A big, thank you for listening to the Rebel Diaries show your time is precious, so it is appreciated. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to hit that subscribe button in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss the next one. There's a new episode every Monday morning, ideal for your commute to work or early morning walk. 

[00:29:38] Scott: Until next time, take care be a rebel and deliver work with impact.