Robert Gardner - Finding The Balance Of Purpose And Financial Resilience

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[00:00:54] Rob: That's why I actually referenced Ikagai, that Japanese reason for being, if you can picture this, it's four circles, so in a venn diagram, and they're all overlapping What you get paid for, what you're good at. What you love and what the world needs.

[00:01:10] Rob: And Ikagai is at the intersection of all four of those.

[00:01:13] Rob: Recently it was mental health day and 50% of all mental health issues are to do with typically indebtedness or anxiety or worry about money. So being on top of your financial resilience is also good for your own kind of mental wellbeing. 

[00:01:31] Rob: And that the challenge is the average man in the UK will run out of money 10 years before he dies. And the average woman will, will run out of money 12 years before she dies.

[00:01:39] Scott: Rob Gardner is an investor, entrepreneur and author committed to delivering financial freedom in a world worth living in. He co-founded Redington mallow street and the charity RedStart. He is a board director and investor in Rebalance Earth, a global ecosystems platform for valuing and investing in nature to help reverse climate change biodiversity loss and create economic prosperity for local communities. 

[00:02:02] Scott: Hi Rob. Welcome to the Rebel Diaries Podcast 

[00:02:04] Rob: Hi Scott. Great to be on here. 

[00:02:06] Scott: So what got you into this? What was your purpose? What, what made you think "I'm gonna sort finance for people, I'm gonna help them get financial stability". 

[00:02:16] Rob: It's a good, question. I think finding your purpose or your Ikigai your kind of Japanese reason for being, I think. It doesn't just happen like that. It requires work like going to the gym. So I first started working on it about 10 years ago. In in, in 2012. And I actually met a guy called Mike Harris, who he's well known cuz he, he was the founder of First Direct in the 1980s.

[00:02:40] Rob: He convinced Midland Bank to, have no banks and do telephone banking. He then founded Egg, the first online bank in the late 1990s. And his whole thing, this is 10 years ago. When you're starting a business, which I was running at the time, what's your purpose beyond money? And so I think it's really easy in business to, to make staff or want to sell a consulting service and just focus on selling more and more.

[00:03:05] Rob: And of course you wanna look after your clients, but. But what problem is it solving? What is the purpose of it? I suppose the flip side of that question is, would anyone miss you or your company if it wasn't there? Which is a pretty brutal question to to ask. And I suppose that's where, at the time I was running Reddington a pensions and investment consulting firm that I'd co-founded. And yeah, my, my kind of purpose beyond money was what if we could transform everyone from not knowing what to do to feeling confident and in control of their money. So it was kinda like that higher aspiration. And so a big theme of my career has always been around financial education and helping people make good decisions.

[00:03:47] Rob: Today, if you look on LinkedIn, it says I'm passionate about helping people achieve financial wellbeing in a world worth living in. And so for me, those two are important. I wanna help people understand how money works. I want them to feel informed and confident to make better decisions about money and to create that kind of financial freedom.

[00:04:06] Rob: And at the same time, I want to help people understand and feel empowered that actually their money can be a force for good, and the money that they invest for their future selves can actually be used to have an impact. On, on, on making a world worth living in. How do we tackle the big existential crisis we face around biodiversity loss and climate change?

[00:04:25] Rob: Having that purpose is very motivating. You don't, I don't need someone to get me out of bed to go and do a financial education day. I love it. And ha having that just, I think makes a lot of sense. But just as a sidebar, I think the first time I got an inkling of it was, when I was at school and I was doing maths, physics, chemistry, because that's what my mom and dad had studied. And the geography teachers convinced me to do geography cuz I was really good at it and I love geography. And actually I ended up taking on geography and I didn't wanna do four A levels, so I dropped chemistry and I actually went on to study geography at university. And again, I flirted with the idea of studying physics at university cuz that's what my dad had studied.

[00:05:03] Rob: But geography is what I loved. And so I suppose I'm very grateful to two teachers I had who encouraged me to pick the subject that I loved. Rather than what I was good at. And I think that's great advice because you are less likely to give up on the stuff that you love. And so there's that sort of intrinsic motivation that I think purpose gives you.

[00:05:23] Scott: you finished education, what was the trigger point for you to say, " I wanna start my own business" and forming Reddington had you already started to get your, cuz obviously geography to financial stuff is quite different. So what was the switch for you, did you find your purpose over time or did it just fall 

[00:05:41] Rob: No, definitely over time, I think, , at university or so, even at, school going to university, I didn't, really know what a, I knew what a pension was, but I wasn't really thinking about pensions and investments. I actually started my career working at Deutsche Bank, and then I went on to work for a firm called Merrill Lynch.

[00:05:56] Rob: Now, Bank of America Merrill Lynch, but in the whole world of investment banking, and I have to say, when I went to, when I went to university, I'd never heard of these banks. I'd obviously heard of Barclays in HSBC and I knew what retail banking was or commercial banking. But these sort of banks that traded foreign exchange or traded equities I just had no idea.

[00:06:19] Rob: So that's where I began my career. It's very, for me, it was a profession. I was good at it. I was well paid, but I didn't love it. And it wasn't until sort of 2006, so six years into my career that I met my business partner. We worked at Merrill Lynch together, and we were just passionate about solving the problem for defined benefit pension funds.

[00:06:40] Rob: And in fact, when we left Merrill Lynch to set up Reddington we wrote in our application form to the financial regulator that we wanted to do to pensions what Jamie Oliver had done to school food at the time. Jamie Oliver had famously gone into all these schools and tried to encourage healthy eating and show that it could still, healthy eating, could be done on a budget.

[00:06:58] Rob: And I suppose we wanted to show that actually pensions was important and that people should engage with it and think about their financial future.

[00:07:05] Scott: Great. That's like your pitch, and was that easy to then sell to the employees that joined you? Because you always hear about the challenges, the, especially when organizations get quite big the passion of the ceo. How does that filter down or the purpose of the CEO and the company?

[00:07:20] Scott: How do you get everyone on board from the company rather than, "Oh, it's just a nine to five job and I go home"? How big did Reddington get? 

[00:07:26] Rob: Yeah, Redding Reddington is still going, but I left probably about four years ago and it was probably about 175 people. It's over 200 people now. Look, I think it, it gets harder and harder one of the jobs of leadership is to communicate and say the same thing over and over again and create that buy in.

[00:07:42] Rob: And you can't just say it once and you can't just put a stencil of it on the wall. Or on people's you or, on people's screensavers. It's, it needs to be lived and breathed. It needs to be authentic. 

[00:07:55] Rob: It's true you need to hear this stuff over and over again, and when they, when people hear it, it needs to feel authentic.

[00:08:00] Rob: Not like a tagline, not like a sales line. So that requires. That requires real effort. And that's just the purpose bit. The bit that also always goes with that is kind of culture and what are your values, what are your behaviors? That underpin all of that. And again that's a never ending process of modeling them, reinforcing them showcasing when they're working and also highlighting when they're not.

[00:08:22] Scott: So did you get the feeling that the majority of people you employed were passionate about the same, objective a view with the organization? Did you feel that in, did you get that vibe? 

[00:08:32] Rob: Yeah, no, 100%. And I think, even now, even four years after I left and my co-founder stepped down and we've, had, one CEO and that we've now had another CEO since, and we've had private equity investors. I think Reddington still amongst its industry, stands out as being very purpose led.

[00:08:49] Rob: And people, when they come to work for Reddington, they talk about the purpose statement, which is, Reddington's job is to help make a hundred million people financially secure. That, and that really resonates and a lot of people. Former employees, current employees talk about that as quite an important thing as to why they come to Remington.

[00:09:08] Rob: But I, with that it's also their the sort of the culture as well. So I think the two go hand in hand.

[00:09:13] Scott: So do you think some people struggle to, it's the whole find your purpose, do some that you love and there's that tension between, or balance between, is it actually gonna give you financial stability and a job that pays well versus some passions just are never going to pay, are they? So there's that difficulty isn't there.

[00:09:32] Scott: You've obviously got lucky that you've found the passion and it. Sustains you financially. Do you think some people struggle to find that and spend quite a long time in their career just trying to get that, 

[00:09:41] Rob: Yeah, 

[00:09:42] Scott: thing that excites them, gets 'em outta 

[00:09:44] Rob: That, that's why I actually referenced that kind of Ikagai, that Japanese reason for being, and that they have if you can picture this, it's four circles, so in a venn diagram, and they're all overlapping What you get paid for, what you're good at. What you love and what the world needs.

[00:10:01] Rob: And Ikagai is at the intersection of all four of those. So I love financial education. I've written a children's book. I've actually written a book for adults that gets published in January, 2023. And I've founded a charity 10 years ago called Red Start that teaches primary school kids about money. I love doing that, but I don't get paid for it. So when I do it, it makes me feel great. The hairs stand on the back of my neck I'm good at it. I'm passionate about it, but I don't get paid for it. So that, is the problem with just find your purpose, because, there's lots of stuff I love. But I can't pay for it. There's stuff I love that I'm not very good at. I love playing tennis. . I'm never gonna be I'm never gonna be as good at tennis as a, I wanna be or b definitely not enough to, or not good enough to, earn a, make a career out of it. So I think that's the danger sometimes of just saying, "Oh, we'll just find your purpose".

[00:10:53] Rob: I think it, it needs to be more specific.

[00:10:55] Scott: Yeah. And that's interesting when you've described that it, I wonder if some people think it all has to be in their job, but actually you found a way that. It doesn't have to just be the job. It can be something you do as a hobby or supporting a charity or it's another way to find some purpose.

[00:11:09] Scott: That doesn't all have to be in one place, does it just,

[00:11:12] Scott: "oh my job has to define my purpose and pay me and be something I'm great at" 

[00:11:15] Rob: Correct. I and absolutely. It might be, you just, you enjoy helping young people succeed and thrive, and that might be because you're a football coach or maybe you are a music teacher or you supported a, your local church whatever that is. You're right. I think it doesn't have to come from your career or your profession.

[00:11:34] Scott: So it'd be good to explore the financial resilience side of things, cuz I know that's important to you. So how do you define that? What's your definition of financial resiliance? 

[00:11:41] Rob: Yeah so I think there were two kind of concepts that. From a personal freedom perspective, you need to be on top of. One is financial resilience and one is financial wellbeing. So for me, financial resilience is your ability to absorb setbacks, what I call the bumps in the road.

[00:11:59] Rob: And, let's face it, we've all faced a lot of bumps in the road, right? We had covid. Many people were furloughed and had it not been for the furlough scheme would've been awful. If you get let go, I think the average time taken now to find a new job is like 12 months. So could you go 12 months without any money?

[00:12:17] Rob: Do you have any money? Set aside. So financial resilience is can you deal with setbacks? Your car breaks down, your washing machine breaks down you've lost your job and that. And that's typically about avoiding high levels of indebtedness, especially from a sort of personal finance perspective.

[00:12:33] Rob: It's a bit different from a mortgage cuz that's security against an asset and it's also. Do you have enough sort of cash to, to cover those setbacks? And the analogy I like to use is a bit like a smartphone battery. And when you charge it up, it goes green, and then as you use it and as it runs down, then it goes into kind of low battery mode when you got 20% left and then it goes red and then you run out. Ask yourself, are you running your personal finances? Do do you top it? Is it always running in green? Are you always running it on low power mode? Or are you always running it on red? Which is, let's say you've got a lot of pay by now. Pay later. You've got a lot of personal finance debt.

[00:13:11] Rob: So that's financial resilience. I think it's important because, recently it was mental health day and 50% of all kind of mental health issues are to do with typically indebtedness or anxiety or worry about money. So being on top of your financial resilience is also good for your own kind of mental wellbeing. So that kind of is the short term, and then there's the long term. At some point, you wanna stop working, you want to retire. Some people aspire to retire early early than 65, 70. People know I'd love to kind, How do I retire at 40? There's an entire movement around sort of people who wanna save as much as possible.

[00:13:49] Rob: And then and when retire at 40, and that's about how do you build up a enough long term assets that will then create a cash flow that you can live off once you stop. Once you start working. And so for many of us that might be long term investments that we put in ISAS in pensions, that we invest in stocks and shares the property we buy.

[00:14:09] Rob: And again, the challenge is very few people even know how to calculate their total wealth. I everything you own, minus everything you owe. And almost think about what should my wealth be. Age 25, what should it be? Age 30, What should it be? Age 35, 40. What do I want it to be in 10 years time? What do I want it to be in 15 years time?

[00:14:28] Rob: What do I need to do now to get there? And that the challenge is the average man in the UK will run out of money 10 years before he dies. And the average woman will, will run out of money 12 years before she dies. And, Or said differently. If you think about how much money you need to set aside to retire comfortably the average person in the UK has only got about 40% of that number.

[00:14:50] Rob: So for me, that financial wellbeing is very long term thing and it's much harder to do cuz it's delayed gratification. The sort of financial resilience is very much here and now "how do I survive the cost of living crisis? How do I survive my fuel bills going up? How do I survive? My, losing my job."

[00:15:05] Rob: And so I think it, it's really important to teach people the awareness around these things and teach people the habits. Cuz a lot of this is about habit. And then what are the sort of tools and techniques to build both of those together.

[00:15:17] Scott: I guess it's not too late for some people, some people might think . "Am I too old? Am I've not got any financial stability for the future". I'm interested in your, you're saying it's now 12 months average to find a new job. I read not that long ago, it was about, they say have three to six months money in the bank.

[00:15:33] Scott: Has that, was that advice always wrong or is it actually got worse now? It's taking longer for 

[00:15:38] Scott: people to find 

[00:15:38] Rob: No, three to six months is about the right. Sorry. There's two things. The advice is about have about three to six months living expenses. I just think after Covid and trying to find jobs that was just a stat for 2021 in terms of how long it was taking. I look, the truth is when it comes to building financial wellbeing, you can have too much money in cash.

[00:15:59] Rob: So some people. are really good at the financial resilience and almost have, have lots of money in the bank account. They might have three years worth of salary in the bank account, and then that money's slowly being eroded away. They're not earning much interest on their bank account and actually they've not invested in a in assets and aren't participating in that growth. So that is the tension. I personally operate at about three to six months. I think 12 months is a bit conservative, but I just wanted to bring that to life.

[00:16:26] Scott: Yeah, and I guess the challenges of course, money sat in a bank these days is. Devaluing, isn't it, because of inflation And it's, I'm no expert. I wouldn't even dream of trying to give advice in this area. I've heard it's about diversification and, having assets in different places rather than putting all the eggs in one basket.

[00:16:44] Scott: And that money just devaluing. 

[00:16:47] Rob: It is. No, absolutely. And I suppose that's my point is, do you feel confident managing your own money? Do you feel confident thinking about these decisions? Do you feel confident knowing actually three to six months is okay. I'm comfortable with that. Or is it something that you just happens?

[00:17:01] Rob: You you work, you earn your money, you spend your money, and then it just, Before stuff happens or you're hoping stuff doesn't happen to you because you're like I just dunno how I'll respond in terms of is it too late? It's never too late. You can always start and it's amazing how much of transformation you can make in six months, 12 months.

[00:17:19] Rob: Obviously the long term transformation for your financial wellbeing takes, takes longer, but certainly in terms of turning around your financial resilience, you can turn that around pretty quickly.

[00:17:27] Scott: And do you think you hear increasingly people are taking like second sideline gigs, you know they're doing their own business on the side. You've seen an increase in that, that I guess that makes sense. You're diversifying your risks slightly. If you can cope with it, having two jobs or, doing the hobby thing.

[00:17:42] Scott: Turn and turn a turn hobby into a business alongside the day job? 

[00:17:46] Rob: Yeah, so actually I've written a book that, that, that's gonna get published and I, it's called Freedom, How to Earn It, Keep It and Grow It. And I think the key to that sort of financial freedom is you need to earn money. You need to keep some of it. And then the bit that you keep, you need to grow it.

[00:18:01] Rob: So the earn it bit is to what extent can I supplement my income? I do think there's a. A sort of trade off because I think sometimes people don't always go through and think "what can I keep more, Could I maybe cut my expenditure? Could I go through what I call radical cost cutting."

[00:18:15] Rob: Most of us can do easy cost cutting, cut out all those subscriptions to Netflix, Amazon Prime. 

[00:18:20] Rob: Yeah, it's, it. Yeah, there there's typically sort of 10% that you could cut out quite easily. Going sort of 30, 40%, that's a bit more brutal. But you can, you, you can do that if you need to.

[00:18:32] Rob: There's no doubt that if you, especially in this day and age with all the sort of technology platforms that you, that exist, is that you can earn extra money on the side and actually even turn it into career. So I had a guy who used to work for me who loves super cars and he used to run it as a side hustle when he was working at Reddington.

[00:18:53] Rob: And then he was making more money from advertising on his site than he was working for us. And then one day he came to us and he said I've actually been approached by YouTube to, why don't I set up my own business? And for those of you listeners who are into cars, he he's got a YouTube channel and an Instagram account called me one 50.

[00:19:11] Rob: I think he's got like 4 million followers on Instagram, and he's now doing very well. But again, during lockdown, if you Google like eBay millionaires, the number of eBay millionaires that went through the roof, like literally people just selling junk or other people's junk and selling it on eBay.

[00:19:26] Rob: It, I'm not saying it is the right answer, but it is possible to go out and think beyond your current job to go, How can I supplement my income?

[00:19:35] Scott: So we talked about purpose and we talked about financial resilience. What's your thoughts on how they're interlinked Because you've obviously, you've gave the example where you've got the charity work you do and the books and a way to follow your passion and purpose, but those things aren't bringing in money.

[00:19:51] Scott: I'm sure the books will but the charity stuff doesn't. But to do that, you'd need to be financially stable. Otherwise you couldn't just do that a hundred percent of the time.

[00:20:00] Rob: So for me, financial resilience, financial wellbeing is all part of your financial health and I suppose it's a bit like your physical and mental health I think it's you. If you don't look after yourself, you can't go to work, right? You can't. If you have a family, you can't look after your family.

[00:20:16] Rob: You can't look after yourself. And I suppose as you get older, when you're younger, you take your health for granted. You just don't think about it. But as you get older, you think, actually, I do need to be more mindful about my sleep. I need to be more mindful about how much water I drink? Am I hydrated?

[00:20:33] Rob: How much alcohol and caffeine am I drinking? My diet I, it turns out I can't eat burger and chips every day now cuz , that's not gonna be good for me. Which obviously was, there was point in time when, I thought I could and yeah. 

[00:20:45] Rob: Need just get away with it and exercise as, as well.

[00:20:47] Rob: So the, your health is hard work and actually you need to be healthy. To go to work, earn money, do the things that you love. And for me, financial health is the same. I think if you build that financial freedom, that does give you the option to maybe step away from a job that you don't enjoy.

[00:21:07] Rob: You know how many people end up in careers or jobs because they feel that they have. And yeah, look, and sometimes that's self-induced, right? Quite often that can be people who earn a lot of money, who are high rate taxpayers, but their lifestyle expands to. Fit their payroll, and then they feel that they're now stuck, stuck in a job that, that they didn't wanna do, and then they didn't wanna change jobs because that job doesn't pay as much as that one.

[00:21:31] Rob: And it just becomes a sort of a bind. And so for me, that sort of financial freedom is that financial freedom to say, " actually, is this the job that I want to do? Is this where I want to spend? My, my, my time" and or maybe you've got a job that demands a lot of hours.

[00:21:46] Rob: That means that you don't get to do the other stuff the stuff that you love. Maybe coaching sports to kids or teaching music or being in a band or traveling the world. And I see financial freedom in that sense as an enabler, but it needs to be earned and it needs to be maintained.

[00:22:02] Rob: A bit like your, a bit like your physical health.

[00:22:04] Scott: Yeah. And I, without that purpose, you hear about people with lots of money. Aren't always happy. There's the people that think, "Oh, when I'm a millionaire, When I win the lottery, when I get financial freedom". But they're still can be deeply unhappy and I guess that's because they maybe haven't found their purpose or there's, what it didn't turn out to be what they thought it was gonna be. 

[00:22:27] Rob: The reality is that having lots of money and being able to buy things, those are externally motivated things whereas purpose is an internally motivated thing, and that takes time. And that was the point I was trying to make at the beginning is that you have to work on it.

[00:22:40] Rob: And it changed over time. Mine used to be very much focused on financial wellbeing and financial education, and Now it's financial wellbeing and a world worth living in. And actually I've just decided to quit my job and pursue something else and go back to being a startup.

[00:22:55] Rob: And, I wouldn't have been able to do that had I not had the financial freedom to do that. And my new purpose is now more focused to a world worth living in. What part can I play in trying to address climate change and biodiversity loss so that, For me anyway. That's a good example of me not just staying where I am in a well paid job for what I do and going actually what do I really wanna do for the next 10 years?

[00:23:19] Rob: Where do I wanna make a dent? What do I now feel passionate about? And as I say that, that has evolved for me personally over the last, over the last 15 years. 

[00:23:27] Scott: And can you tell us a bit more about the new startup? 

[00:23:29] Rob: So a year ago I went to Glasgow for Cop 26. I've always been passionate. I think I've already mentioned, I studied geography. I actually specialized in glaciology and hydrology. So the study of glaciers and rivers, and 25 years ago I spent my summers on glaciers up in Switzerland drilling bore holes.

[00:23:48] Rob: Anyway this summer someone sent me a photo of that same glacier except it's not there, it's disappeared. And I've got a photo. It's basically, the photo was the identical to the photo I'd taken. And we've all seen these on on the internet, but for me, that was real. That was somewhere where I spent six weeks of my life and it's just gone.

[00:24:05] Rob: It's way back up the valley and. I have two young girls because I study geography. I understand the science of climate change. I I understand just how bad it is and I've got this idea that makes it easy for individuals and companies to invest in nature capture carbon and I think play a meaningful part in reversing the trend.

[00:24:26] Rob: So my idea is this. You land a Heathrow and you wanna offset your flight because you still want to go on holidays, but you also want to make sure you do it in a offset the impact. You go on your phone and you pick an elephant and you invest in an elephant and maybe Rosie the elephant and it says, Look Scott, Rosie, you need Rosie the elephant for the next 10 days.

[00:24:46] Rob: And every day you get pictures and videos of her and it says, This is how much CO2 she's offsett . And not only that because she's alive, she's, improving biodiversity and she's also creating local income for the community. Maybe in Gabon, maybe in in DRC. But, here's the cool thing.

[00:25:03] Rob: If you did that elephant is worth $1.75 million alive. At the moment, elephants get killed for $40,000 for their tusks under sort of poaching. And so what I wanna do is use, it's this whole idea of money as a force for good. How can you connect something that has real value to the planet, but is invisible to all of us.

[00:25:24] Rob: And how can we also correct the inequalities of the global north and the global south so that actually all of a sudden money starts to to flow to where that nature is. And my big hairy, audacious goal idea is in, in the world of money used to be backed by gold.

[00:25:40] Rob: That's why they used to be gold in the Bank of England. Now our money. Backed by our economy. That's why the US dollar is the sort strongest currency in the world. It's got the strongest economy. But what if in the future we had a currency that was backed by nature and the value of nature.

[00:25:54] Rob: So as crazy as that may sound, that's my new idea. And I suppose that's an example of me following my purpose and having the freedom to do it.

[00:26:03] Scott: That sounds really cool. 

[00:26:04] Scott: So one of the questions I ask all my guests, if you had one book you could take to a desert island, what would it be? 

[00:26:10] Rob: I've read this book multiple times, but it's my favorite book. It's How Will You Measure Your Life By Clay Christensen, and I suppose some of the concepts that we talked about today he just gets you to think about. Your your future self. And therefore through that lens, think about your health.

[00:26:25] Rob: Think about the quality of your relationships with your husband or your wife. The quality of your relationship with your children, the quality of your relationship with yourself and those financial decisions. And I suppose the same, when it comes to business is like idea of beginning with the end in mind and working backwards.

[00:26:40] Rob: So yeah, that, that's probably been the book I've read t he most times, and if I only had one book, I'd take it with me.

[00:26:46] Scott: I'll get the link to that in the show notes. So if anyone wants to work with you, find out more about your new venture how do they get in touch? 

[00:26:52] Rob: Yeah thanks Scott. On LinkedIn is probably the best way Robert Gardner. But also I can be found on Twitter and Instagram at Robert J. Gardner. That's Robert J and then Gardner, G A R D N E R, all one word.

[00:27:07] Scott: Perfect, and I'll get those linked up in the show notes as well. 

[00:27:10] Scott: Rob it's been great chatting to you, thanks for being on the show. 

[00:27:12] Rob: Thanks Scott. Look forward to listening to it. 

[00:27:14] Scott: A big, thank you for listening to the Rebel Diaries show your time is precious so it is appreciated. The show has a Facebook group for you to engage with others, discuss topics, get access to exclusive content and let me know what you think of the show. There's a link to the group in the show notes or search Facebook for "Rebel Diaries community". 

[00:27:31] Scott: Until next week take care be a rebel and deliver work with impact.