Intro teaser

[00:00:29] Andrew: if you're doing about 20% of your day, doing the things that you enjoy, you tend to be happy at work, below that you start to lose interest, you become disengaged, and very unhappy.

[00:00:40] Andrew: You tend to bring that stuff home, you bring that into the family life. You bring that into your other areas of life, and it also damages you as a person.

[00:00:48] Andrew: You're basically an empty shell at work for 40 hours a week.

[00:00:52] Scott: In this episode, we're talking to Andrew Lloyd Gordon, a business psychologist and digital marketing expert. We discuss the power of mindset over your resilience and performance at work. How to find a job you love, imposter syndrome and much more.

Main show

[00:01:07] Scott: hi, Andrew. Welcome to the show. Would you mind just introducing yourself for everybody who's listening?

[00:01:12] Andrew: Scott. It's, really great to be here with you. I'm a business psychologist, qualified business psychologist, and I've been involved, in marketing for about a hundred years! I've done lots of different things, but I'm sure we can go into my career history at some point. 

[00:01:24] Andrew: A lot of success in life and certainly businesses is very much around your mindset and your attitude and really what I've been thinking about over the last, maybe five, 10 years of my own work experiences, success is very much in the mind, it starts in, in your attitude to life.

[00:01:41] Andrew: And there are a number of mindsets you need to be aware of and build upon in order to be successful. So I'd want to sort of explore some of those ideas around mindset today.

[00:01:51] Scott: I've seen increasingly people getting stressed out and overloaded at work and mindset is obviously key, to being resilient and dealing with those kinds of challenges. 

[00:02:01] Andrew: I think if you say to people that mindset is important, they intuitively know that makes sense, but there are some really interesting studies now, obviously being a psychologist I'm interested in the psychology, but there was a really fascinating study where they said to people, they were studying sleep, but in fact, they were actually studying people's attitudes.

[00:02:19] Andrew: They told these subjects that they were measuring their R E M rapid eye movement sleep, which is the dream state. 

[00:02:25] Andrew: We all spend a good chunk of our night, a good quality sleeping in dreams. But they weren't really measuring that. 

[00:02:32] Andrew: So these subjects came in they slept in this sort of lab setting and then in the morning, they were randomly told that their sleep quality had either been poor or good based on this REM uh, measurement. Now it didn't depend on their subjective feelings. So the person might have woken up and thought, yeah, I had a good sleep, but they got told that in terms of the quality the metrics were not great. 

[00:02:59] Andrew: So people were randomized, you know, whether they'd had a good night's sleep or not, they were told, "yes, you've had a good night's sleep" or you've not. So that really set up their attitude. And then all the subjects were given cognitive tests to perform, you know, so little sort of IQ type tests and the people that had had this, um, belief system, if you like given to them that they'd had a bad night's sleep, they performed worse than the people who'd been told they'd had a great night's sleep, regardless of the reality of whether they've had a good night's sleep or not.

[00:03:31] Andrew: It was a really nice study that showed that your belief really impacts on your actions day to day just being told you'd had a good night's sleep or not really affected how you performed in that day.

[00:03:44] Andrew: So really that sort of just summarizes that mindset, how you approach life, whether you believe you can, or you believe you can't really make a difference. Intuitively people understand and people, I think in sort of common language would, would tell you that. But having a study that demonstrates that was really quite powerful.

[00:04:00] Scott: You hear a lot of research these days saying how critical sleep is to everything, health, length of time you live and your effectiveness. But actually, the mindset can overpower that to some degree, by what you're saying? 

[00:04:13] Andrew: Yeah, I think people are increasingly recognizing that we used to have this idea that if you could power through, you know, sleep was for fools and you could get away with three or four hours sleep or something, and actually it's the opposite. You need to be fully rested to be productive and be successful.

[00:04:29] Andrew: So sleep is essential to success, but that study was a remarkable, powerful study of how just telling people something, whether you can, or you can't changed their attitude to life. 

[00:04:40] Andrew: I think you need to explore what are your mindsets? What is your mindset around work? Do you believe that you are capable of doing it or do you have any sort of doubts and anxieties that are getting in the way? And that's something that you can do the work on your own very often. Or sometimes if you need that extra help from a coach or a facilitator or maybe a manager that can help you with that.

[00:05:02] Andrew: But that is a real starting point, for success in, any area of life, whether that's home life, you know, work-life, everything, it really is mindset.

[00:05:10] Scott: What are your thoughts on self-doubt and impostor syndrome, how that affects their ability to perform in life and in work in particular? 

[00:05:18] Andrew: Yeah. I've been the imposter syndrome is one of those ones that I think, which is an idea that's got into the common language, which is great, that everybody feels like an imposter, and there's some argument. If you don't feel like an impostor, you've not pushed yourself. You're not pushing yourself outside your comfort zones.

[00:05:34] Andrew: As soon as you move forward in life, you take on a new job. You take on a new client you're doing anything new. You should feel like a bit of an impostor. And if you're not feeling a bit of an impostor, then you're not pushing yourself, you're not growing. 

[00:05:47] Andrew: I think it's great that people are aware of the imposter syndrome, but of course, what you don't want to do is turn the imposter syndrome into sort of another barrier where it becomes something to say, I can't do it because my imposter syndrome.

[00:05:58] Andrew: It's healthy to recognize that you have those feelings of being an imposter, but then you should say, "well, actually, in a way I'm pleased I'm feeling like an impostor because it shows that I'm actually moving forward and growing", you know?

[00:06:10] Scott: That's self-awareness as well, isn't it? And that's key is recognizing that and trying to not be afraid of it. You hear the growth happens in that zone. That's when you're being pushed when you're being challenged. 

[00:06:21] Andrew: I think everything starts with awareness. And I think an awareness you're not the only person feeling those feelings and having the awareness of your own doubts and anxieties, which are completely normal. So that, that awareness of your own anxieties is essential, but also knowing that everybody has them and even the most confident people on the outside are also feeling like imposters are also feeling anxious and, and struggling with things.

[00:06:48] Andrew: I think that's really powerful to know that you're not abnormal, and I think if you look at again, the research around people's anxieties around work and projects is they think there's something wrong with them, and actually the reality is if you don't have some of these anxieties in a way, I mean, there's a point where they become debilitating and you know, you can't function, then you need help. You need counselling or therapy or some sort of help, but that general anxiety "am I good enough?" "Can I do this?" "Can I get through this?" That is actually really normal. 

[00:07:20] Andrew: I think it all starts with awareness awareness that, you have those feelings, but also that everybody else does as well.

[00:07:26] Scott: I think a lot of people. You know, we make assumptions. You see someone else you perceive as being successful, but what you don't know quite often is what's going on in their head or behind the scenes. 

[00:07:36] Andrew: I think successful people they've managed those negative emotions. It doesn't mean they haven't got them it's just that for whatever reason they've, you know, I don't say push through, cause I don't want to diminish people's anxieties. You know, people have anxieties and people get all sorts of issues that they need help with.

[00:07:54] Andrew: So I don't wanna diminish any of that, but some of those people who are successful, they had those anxieties. They have those fears and doubts like the rest of us, but for whatever reason, they've had the support they've had the coaching, they've had the mentoring. And I think mentoring is something that is really underestimated.

[00:08:10] Andrew: They've managed to get where they are, despite those anxieties. I think as well with successful people is there's often an element of luck in their success, which you're not aware of as well. 

[00:08:22] Scott: So people in this kind of situation where they're maybe, I don't want to say not have the right mindset, but what kind of advice would you give to people who, this is resonating with? 

[00:08:33] Andrew: I think if you are listening to this sort of podcast, you probably have the mindset of what's called growth mindset. So the growth mindset are you familiar with the idea is that there's two basic sorts of mindsets with regards to personal development. Caroline Dweck, the psychologist, she came up with this approach.

[00:08:51] Andrew: There's people who have what's called a fixed mindset, and they believe that they're sort of finished that they can't improve. You know, "this is who I am, take me or leave me. I can't change". The growth mindset is a person who says, "well, I'm here where I am today but I can improve I can get better", whatever it is, it could be public speaking,it could be writing copy for your website. It could be being a manager. And you're always looking for improvement and a growth mindset is: , you don't want to fail, but if you fail, you make mistakes, you see those as learning lessons, whereas a fixed mindset they avoid failure because failure challenges their sense of identity.

[00:09:33] Andrew: So I think what I'd suggest is to understand what your mindsets are, is how do you feel about failure, for example? do you see errors as learning or the worst thing ever? Are you threatened by taking on new challenges? Do you believe you can improve? Now if you start to identify those barriers, then it's worth saying, "okay, do I have a fixed mindset or growth mindset?"

[00:09:57] Andrew: And then if you're going to want to improve that sort of fixed mindset is "what can I do about it?" You know, taking on new challenges and trying to find ways to move forward and develop, but say again, it comes back to that awareness is where do you think you are? 

[00:10:12] Andrew: Just to clarify, you may have a fixed mindset in certain areas of your life and a growth mindset in others.

[00:10:18] Andrew: So I'll give you a personal example. I don't see myself as much of a cook. You know, look in the fridge and what can I just eat very quickly and just throw together. Whereas my partner will look in their fridge and go, "oh, I could make this meal, I could make that meal". So I have a fixed mindset maybe when it comes to the kitchen, but in terms of learning things and development and understanding psychology in the areas I like, I am always looking to improve where she's probably more, she doesn't think she's capable of doing some of that learning. So she's very anxious about her ability to learn new material. So she's got a growth mindset in some areas and a fixed in others. So I don't want to suggest that some people are fixed in every area of their life.

[00:11:00] Andrew: I think that if you can understand, "how do I feel about taking on new challenges? How do I feel about mistakes?" That gives you a clue now, the next step is then what am I going to do about it?

[00:11:11] Andrew: If I do think I've got a fixed mindset and I don't, I don't want to move forward. That's your personal choice.

[00:11:17] Andrew: So I suggest that people probably listening to this podcast and podcasts, like it, it's almost like a self-selecting audience, you know, they, they're probably listening to podcasts because they want to improve that they want to move forward. And that's great for those people. 

[00:11:30] Andrew: It's the people that you probably work with. The colleagues who perhaps do tell you that, "well, I can't change this is me". So often, you know, it's, it's not you, that's the issue sometimes in, in organizations, it's those people with a fixed mindset who are your colleagues. And that's a y'know that's a minefield trying to manage those people.

[00:11:51] Scott: What struck me is what you described as that's really powerful to know that and I hadn't considered that, that the mindset, it depends on what it is. So it sounds like if you if you're going to be in the growth mindset, you probably need to be also passionate about it as well.

[00:12:07] Scott: If, and that, I guess if you're in a job that you hate, you're probably not going to want to grow in that job or have that growth mindset? 

[00:12:14] Andrew: I think so. I think that, yeah, if you're in a job that you don't like then you're probably resistant to moving forward because I think sometimes in jobs and I've certainly been at jobs that I've, I really disliked. I don't want to give my energy to it, I don't want to give my energy to learn new things.

[00:12:31] Andrew: And that's actually quite a negative attitude. I think that even in situations where you're not happy, there's always opportunities for growth, but I think you're right. I think if you're in a job that you don't enjoy, that's harder to find that motivation to grow in anything and often that organization, you know, you don't like that job because they don't give you opportunities to grow.

[00:12:51] Andrew: So in a way you're, you're sort of stuck because they won't help you grow and you don't want to grow and it can be a vicious cycle downwards actually.

[00:13:00] Scott: And intrinsically linked with as you've mentioned your colleagues' mindsets as well. And I've seen in organizations, I've worked in the people who've been there too long 

[00:13:08] Andrew: Hmm. 

[00:13:09] Scott: and are just doing the job because it's a job and don't have that growth mindset, but that, that negativity almost spreads to other people.

[00:13:17] Scott: It's like, well, "there's no point putting in that new idea because no one's going to listen". Or, "you know, just, just suck it up". Kind of attitude is, is quite demoralizing. 

[00:13:28] Andrew: If you look again, if you look at the research, there's always a value in churn in organizations. And I used to think that it was terrible that people left, but actually, if you look at again, the research around organizations is you do want an influx of new people because new people bring new ideas, they challenge the status quo.

[00:13:46] Andrew: And you do get some people who've been there literally I've worked in organizations where people work there for like 20, 25. years and they can be a real barrier to change. Of course, they've got a huge pool of knowledge. They know the organization inside and out. Uh, they've got lot of experience, but they can actually hold the organization back.

[00:14:03] Andrew: So if you are in a growth mindset and you enter that culture, it can be very, very frustrating because you want to move, you want to change, you want to grow, but these are the people they're happy with are. You know, and they don't want to grow. And you've got that sort of immovable force and immovable object, and it can be a very, very stressful situation to be in.

[00:14:21] Andrew: And it sounds like you've been there, but I've certainly been there in many organizations. "Why do we do it this way?" " We've always done it this way", "but that doesn't mean we have to carry on doing it this way". 

[00:14:32] Andrew: So those people with a growth mindset are sometimes the people that the organization loses because they want to grow and they leave and they move on.

[00:14:39] Scott: Yeah, they want to make an impact, challenge the way of doing things and get frustrated when management because I guess a lot of this is also dependent on the leadership of the organization and their willingness to support that, 

[00:14:49] Andrew: Well, you can, uh, you can have a growth mindset as an individual. You can also have a growth mindset as an organisation, and that's really ideally what you want is that the whole organization is encouraged to grow. And those people that want to grow, they're attracted to those organizations. And if you haven't got that culture, then it's really hard as an individual to get the growth that you want in a job.

[00:15:09] Andrew: So it really does come down to management, leading that and developing that culture.

[00:15:14] Scott: And do you think somebody looking for an organization with that kind of growth mindset? Have you got Any tips for them on how to find that out in advance, you know, maybe in the interview or because what you don't want to do is go through that process three weeks in and you're like, "oh my goodness, this is awful". 

[00:15:28] Andrew: I think you're right. I think one of my bugbears actually, I've got a lot of bugbears. You probably can tell, but interviews are a terrible way, to recruit people. Organizations should not use, interviews. If you had to drop any mechanism for recruiting people, you wouldn't use interviews.

[00:15:44] Andrew: They're terrible at predicting, job success. But if you were an interview and you got that vibe that they're not a growth mindset organization and you are very much a growth mindset person then really do not take that job. I mean, you may have, you may not have alternatives, but, you don't want to go into that culture because it's going to drive you mad, but you probably pick it up from, you know, their website from their branding, from their products, uh, talking to other employees.

[00:16:11] Andrew: So you'll probably pick it up. But yeah, you, you, you want to pick that up very, very quickly.

[00:16:15] Andrew: I don't say that every organization hasn't got a growth mindset, you'll find pockets of it in some areas. So you might find the IT team, are very growth mindset and then the accounts team, are not, or vice versa. I've worked with organizations where the IT team they're not particularly growth mindset.

[00:16:31] Andrew: They just want to do what they've always done and they're still using Windows XP or something. You know, they haven't actually invested in new technologies and learned cause they feel safe. 

[00:16:40] Scott: "Oh this cloud things a bit scary". 

[00:16:42] Andrew: What's this cloud thing, you know, the that they're just up in the sky. 

[00:16:44] Andrew: That's right so I'm not one to suggest that all organizations top to bottom don't have a growth mindset, but certainly the job you go into you do need that organizational fit 

[00:16:54] Andrew: A good organization will work that out with and they will recruit the people that will fit with the culture. As I said, about, um, interviews, interviews are really bad way to recruit people. So somebody can be very good at the interview but do not fit the culture. So they get brought in because their interview performance, but then they come into a team and they don't fit.

[00:17:18] Andrew: I don't mean they're disruptive. I just mean they just aren't the right person for the job. And then organizations are stuck with them often, or, and the person stuck because they've given up their other job. They might've moved halfway across the country, they just got a new mortgage and suddenly both sides have a relationship that's not working for them. 

[00:17:39] Andrew: Now, if the organization's got any sense, they wouldn't recruit that person into that role. But if they do get the wrong person or maybe the right person in the wrong role, they would then help that person into a more effective position, but that's, that's rare actually.

[00:17:55] Andrew: Work is broken for most people. I'm afraid.

[00:17:57] Scott: Yeah, it's quite sad. I have to ask what's your alternative to interviews then that you'd advise organizations to use? 

[00:18:04] Andrew: It's just based on research. What you would do is you do assessments that are closely fitted to the actual job, and you want to get people to demonstrate the skills that they will need in the role. Which people often say in an interview, "I can tell, I can tell by just talking to this person, how good there'll be on the shop floor".

[00:18:21] Andrew: And actually the reality is no, you can't. People can be very, very good at interview and not actually that good at the job and the other way round some people freeze in interviews. They're terrible at interviews, but they're amazing on the job. 

[00:18:33] Andrew: So the research suggests you should give people the most job like assessment that you can. So if you're doing something customer-facing, you would give them a sort of a role-play customer-facing type experience. If they're doing some sort of analytical work, you'd want them to demonstrate analytical skills in an assessment setting. 

[00:18:54] Andrew: But the interviews stays because it's convenient. It's easy for organizations to do that. It's a hassle to get people in. You know, people don't want to travel, so we'll just do a quick interview. 

[00:19:05] Andrew: The other thing is that human beings tend to overestimate their ability to assess people. So they think, "well, I know I've been interviewing for 20 years. I can tell" 

[00:19:13] Andrew: "Really? You're the person that interviewed those five people that we got rid of. Cause they were terrible." 

[00:19:18] Andrew: So the other thing that organizations don't do is they don't learn from their recruitment that, you know, when was it successful and when wasn't it successful? 

[00:19:26] Scott: Yeah. that's interesting. I doubt there's any measurement going on about that. 

[00:19:29] Andrew: No, no, no, no, no.

[00:19:30] Andrew: That's right. 

[00:19:30] Scott: Who's our good interviewers is that have got it right? 

[00:19:33] Scott: Versus, 70% of the people this person has let through the door have within six months for disciplinary procedures. 

[00:19:39] Andrew: That's right. And what organizations, if they've got a strategic recruitment strategy, which most organizations don't and let's be fair to organizations, most organizations are very small, you know, they're sort of SME micro businesses. They haven't even got an HR person, let alone a strategic recruitment strategy.

[00:19:57] Andrew: But if you're a big organization, you've got the resources, you would assess people all the way through, "How did we recruit them? How do we assess them? What's their job performance? How long do they stay? And when did they leave?" And you would manage that and you would you'd have metrics.

[00:20:12] Andrew: So in other areas of the business, accountancy have metrics, finance has metrics, sales has metrics, marketing has metrics, recruitment often doesn't actually it's "we just get people in the door" and then that's about it.

[00:20:23] Scott: That's really fascinating. It sounds ripe for doing that. Why wouldn't you want to learn about your recruitment process and improve it? And cause it's wasting the organization's time and frankly, people's time if you get the wrong people in through the door. 

[00:20:35] Andrew: Recruitment is extortionate, the amount of money that people spend on advertising jobs, and then the time it takes to recruit people, training, you know, then employing people. And if they are the wrong person, how then you just manage that person for how many years they stay and then if they leave, they can be very disruptive, etc. etc.

[00:20:52] Andrew: It's extortionate. So you'd think the organizations would pay more attention to it, but like a lot of things in life, we don't do all the things that we should do. Unfortunately,

[00:21:02] Scott: That's fascinating. So one of the other things we were going to talk about was, it's linked to obviously this topic, but how do people find enjoyment and satisfaction in their work? What do you think drives that? 

[00:21:13] Andrew: There's a fantastic guy, Marcus Buckingham he's got a new book outdo the Work You Love fantastic work, really recommend his stuff. Marcus Buckingham he's been around for a while in the career space, basically his argument I think is so powerful.

[00:21:27] Andrew: He gives you some very practical tips. You want to find the stuff that you look forward to doing. So what he recommends is you go through a day or week in fact, ideally a week and you carry around a piece of, or on your Apple notes or your Android, just take some notes down each day.

[00:21:42] Andrew: What's the stuff you do each day that you look forward to doing. So you look at your diary and think, " today I'm going to do this, this and this. Oh, I can't wait to do that thing". What's the stuff that you hate, you can't even, I dread doing. When you've done those activities, what are the activities that after you finished the activity, you feel full of excitement and energy?

[00:22:05] Andrew: So you finished that, whatever project or meeting, and you come out to use the expression pumped, you know, you feel absolutely on cloud nine because you've just done that thing. And conversely, what are the things you do that you're just drained by? You've just come out for two-hour meeting, or you just had to do your expenses and over a week or two, you'll start seeing patterns, of the activities that you love and you hate, or at least don't enjoy.

[00:22:33] Andrew: And then what he suggests you do is you start to dig into that and say, "okay, what are the characteristics of these activities?" So you might say "I like working with teams". Okay. But what is it about working with teams that you love? "Oh, well, I actually love it because I can get people to come together around an idea and I can draw ideas out of people".

[00:22:53] Andrew: So it takes a bit again self-reflection and awareness. What are those activities that you like the most and what are the things you don't like? 

[00:23:02] Andrew: Now it's easier said than done because in most jobs you'll have lots of things you don't like, but the research suggests you can see, I like research that you need around about 20% of your day, every day, doing what you like.

[00:23:16] Andrew: And it has to be every day and the threshold is actually quite low. So about 20%, the research suggests if you're doing about 20% of your day, doing the things that you enjoy, you tend to be happy at work, below that you start to lose interest, you become disengaged, and very unhappy.

[00:23:33] Andrew: Above 20% and you're doing really, really well, but even if you've got really successful people that the guys who were just mentioned, even they don't do everything they enjoy every day. And that's actually quite empowering because I used to think that, you know, this idea of find what you love and you'll never work a day again.

[00:23:52] Scott: "Find your passion!" 

[00:23:53] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Find your passion. What, what is my passion? You know, I'm into collecting stamps. Well, how am I going to earn money on that? Well, what is it about collecting stamps or basketball or hockey or what is it about that you can then say, "okay, what's in the world of work?" 

[00:24:09] Andrew: Maybe you could work in hockey maybe you could work in the business side of hockey, you, maybe you could work for the hockey. I'm just picking hockey. No, I picked hockey. I don't even play hockey, but you know, maybe you could go and work in the sporting industry. ,

[00:24:20] Andrew: What is it about? I don't know, building your own computer you know, you make your own PC or something. You've got a gaming PC. What is it about that you like? and your loves will be different to somebody else's and that takes time to do that. And then which are the jobs, "which is the type of work that gives me the opportunity to express myself the most each day?"

[00:24:44] Andrew: But you then accept that there's going to be stuff each day that you don't like. And I actually found that a really powerful idea. Cause I used to think that every single day from the start of the day to the end of the day had to be full of joy you know, and of course, that's nonsense as long as there's enough in each day to keep me happy, then, then life is good.

[00:25:04] Andrew: So going back to your question, I think it starts with that again, a bit of analysis and that's a really good idea and keep notes of what you like and what you don't like each day.

[00:25:12] Scott: If someone's in say a corporate job and they do that analysis and they find that the 80, 90% of what they do, they don't like that they'll have a limited capacity to change some of that depending on their leader, their corporate culture. So I guess there's got to be a tipping point where they have to decide "actually this job isn't for me". Or "I can't change it. I can't make improvements. I've got a growth mindset, but I cannot reduce that percentage of stuff. I hate and increase the stuff I like". 

[00:25:39] Andrew: That's right. So I think the first step if you're in a job and of course as an employee at the moment, there's a huge skills gap you could possibly just jump to another job. 

[00:25:47] Andrew: The best advice really is probably to see if you can improve or increase that 20%. So can you talk to your line manager? Can you do more of what you like? Can you outsource, can you, I don't know, join a different team. What can you do in your existing job to increase that 20%? But basically what you, and what you've just said there is that there's often a point, you think there's no chance. There's no way I could move the dial on this.

[00:26:11] Andrew: That's when you do have to start thinking, "what am I going to do?" And I'm going to just suck it up, which is not a good idea because again, I keep using the word research, but the research suggests you tend to bring that stuff home, you bring that into the family life. You bring that into your other areas of life, and it also damages you as a person.

[00:26:30] Andrew: I mean, you're, you're, you're basically an empty shell at work for 40 hours a week, and that's no way to live your life. So I'd say the first step is to see if you can increase that 20% in your day job. Again, I'm piggybacking on what I'm reading and what I'm sort of learning about. Not just my ideas here, but try and see if you can increase that 20%.

[00:26:47] Andrew: But if you can't, then you really should try and think about moving on, doing something different.

[00:26:53] Scott: Yeah. That leads us nicely on to the final point we were going to discuss, which is the value of having a sense of purpose and how it can sustain you in tough times. 

[00:27:01] Andrew: Yeah. Again, that sounds a bit highfaluting idea of centre purpose. I think that all of us, at some point in our lives question " what am I here for?" And I'll get too deep here, but " what's the purpose of this? Why am I doing this?" And if you are particularly in a job that you don't enjoy, maybe it's to a bigger purpose, maybe you are helping disadvantaged children or something.

[00:27:19] Andrew: Maybe you believe in doing something about the climate crisis. So sometimes you can struggle through something because you've got a bigger purpose. What ideally, what you want to do is enjoy the work you do that helps you achieve your purpose, but you do have to work out what your purpose is.

[00:27:36] Andrew: And I've said that all the way through this conversation, you know, sense of awareness is self-reflection. "What do I want to see is the change in the world? What do I want to move the dial on? What do I want to make happen in the world?"

[00:27:49] Andrew: Everybody quotes Steve jobs, don't they, but Steve jobs in his famous speech said "leave a dent in the universe."

[00:27:55] Andrew: We're all not here for very long. This sounds a bit morbid to say, but if somebody's writing your eulogy, you know, if you got run over by a bus tomorrow, if somebody wrote a eulogy about you what would they say?

[00:28:07] Andrew: Or what would you like them to say? You know, "Andrew / Scott managed to do this, to achieve this with their lives". That's going to happen you're not gonna be here forever. None of us gets off this planet alive. So what would you like to hear that people said about you when, when you're not here now?

[00:28:22] Andrew: I guess that, that sounds a bit morbid but that should help you work out what you want to try and achieve in your life. So if you are in a bad place, sometimes having that sense of purpose can help you grind through it, but that's not a way to live. You know you want to have that sense of purpose and enjoy the journey.

[00:28:40] Scott: Yeah. And I've heard people say your deathbed regrets are like the biggest thing you know, you don't want to be sitting there going, "well, I never, I never wrote that book I wanted to write" or, you know, I've even thought, you know, I'd be happy to admit on this show. I even thought, "Well, you know, what, if this podcast, no one wants to listen to it?"

[00:28:56] Scott: I had the self-doubt thought that we don't know unless you try.

[00:28:58] Andrew: Well, good you. Fantastic. I mean, that's, it's very admirable, you're walking the walk and talking the talk. 

[00:29:03] Andrew: Do you know Dan Pink? his books? Yeah, he's gonna, got a fantastic book out at the moment called Regrets and he talks about the power of regret. We tend to think that regrets are a bad thing, actually, regrets drive us and looking backwards in life and say, well, "where did I make a mistake?" "Who did I hurt?" Often. It's a regret of not doing something. That's one of the biggest regrets, but regrets are actually a powerful tool to drive you into the future.

[00:29:29] Andrew: Obviously we're gonna make mistakes as human beings. We're going to make errors in our lives. But like anything, any sort of business we should learn from our own personal mistakes. So regrets are part of living and the human being that gets to the end of their life without any regrets well that's impossible.

[00:29:45] Andrew: We shouldn't want to be full of regrets, but we're bound to be we're bound to have regrets in our lives. So then we should use them as a springboard to, to improve in the future. 

[00:29:54] Andrew: It's a very deep conversation this one. 

[00:29:57] Scott: It is it's great.

[00:29:58] Scott: If people want to work with you how do they get hold of you? 

[00:30:01] Andrew: My name Andrew Lloyd Gordon. It sounds a bit pretentious to say, just search for me. If you can find me on LinkedIn, probably the starting point. 

[00:30:08] Scott: Great. And we'll put links in the show notes as well, and I'll put links to those books that you've mentioned and I'll be picking some up myself. They sound interesting. There are always too many books to read. Not enough time. 

[00:30:17] Andrew: I think like anything, the books you should read and you'll read all of it. And then other books, you should just get the summary. You can't read everything. 

[00:30:23] Scott: Andrew. Thank you very much for being on the show. It's been great to talk to you. 

[00:30:27] Andrew: It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Scott I enjoyed it. 

Outro
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