Moe Choice is a 12x Co-Founder who has been coaching entrepreneurs, leaders and teams since 2005. He delivers high-energy programmes that challenge and empower individuals to get to precisely where they want to be, and to then focus on how to get there in a way that is engaging, exciting, and energising.
With over 20 years of experience working closely with artists, creatives and solopreneurs, Moe has a knack for making meaningful connections with audiences from around the world. He has an insatiable appetite for supporting people to be the best they can be and to make a bigger impact through their endeavours.
Moe knows how to immediately engage an audience, provoke deep thinking, and provide real-life anecdotes to show you how to live life on your own terms! His unique strategies helped him build many successful businesses, generate millions in investment and revenue, and work directly with some of the world's largest brands.
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[00:00:28] Moe: You can come up with the best plan in the world, but COVID, you get cancer. Your wife dies, your son dies. Your best friend dies. How do you adapt to that? So the best plan is the framework for how you're going to adapt to the unknown, which is the majority of your life is the unknown really?
[00:00:43] Moe: But the other side of it is I'm scrolling on Instagram and I can't get off I was researching personal development on YouTube. Now I'm watching two giraffes fighting over a female giraffe and it's like, how did I get, how did I get, how did I get there?
[00:00:55] Scott: How do you live a happy and fulfilling life in a world of uncertainty and constant change? What if there was a way you could plan for the unknown?
[00:01:04] Scott: I believe this week's guest Mo Choice has it cracked. From early beginnings with an illegal CD bootlegging business, then selling adverts for a magazine that turned out to be a scam to founding 12 companies all over the world.
[00:01:17] Scott: Moe now helps thousands of people of all ages live, what he calls their best lives with his one page plan concept.
[00:01:25] Scott: Quick heads up. There's a bit of swearing on this one.
[00:01:28] Scott: Hi Moe welcome to the Rebel Diaries podcast.
[00:01:31] Moe: Thank you for having me.
[00:01:32] Scott: For people who haven't heard of you, would you mind just giving a bit of an introduction to yourself, a bit of your background, how you got to where you are now and what you do now?
[00:01:39] Moe: I was raised in Dubai, pre bling Dubai, I call it when it was just desert and beach doesn't sound so bad when I put it that way, but that's where I was raised. I moved to Surry in the UK when I was 11, went to school here went to university in London.
[00:01:52] Moe: And while I was at university, I set up my first business. I was trading illegally hip hop and R and B CDs. This is in the height of hip hop fame, Tupac Biggie, that era, if anyone remembers. So I was bootlegging CDs and I was creating my own mixes. I love music, I used to love movie soundtracks because it would be a great mix of old new music slow fast it helped tell the story. There's a lot of art that goes into putting together movie soundtracks original movie soundtracks, right?
[00:02:19] Moe: So I used to create my own kind of movie soundtracks without a movie though and sell them and they were very popular.
[00:02:24] Moe: And that was at my university years. And then I got my first real job as a phone salesman commission only selling adverts in a magazine. And apparently it turned out to be a non-existent magazine. So it was a bit of a a scam.
[00:02:35] Moe: But I learnt how to speak on the phone. I learned how companies are structured, who makes decisions.
[00:02:39] Moe: It was a fantastic experience at 20, 21 years old that was in Goodge Street off Tottenham Court Road. I did that for 18 months while still selling CDs while trying to establish my next business, which was a digital marketing concept. And I did that. I bought into my cousin had a photo.
[00:02:55] Moe: Remember those photo shops, some of them still exist, snappy snaps type.
[00:02:59] Scott: Yeah.
[00:03:00] Moe: So he had one, I took the office downstairs, partnered with him and I was partnering with photographers and that's really what got me into what I started doing, which is working with creatives. So I started working with photographers on how to present themselves, how to, make money out of their photography.
[00:03:14] Moe: I got involved in photography for antique cars, jewelries Christie's antique paintings, anything that was expensive that needed to be photographed so that they could send them. And then the internet came early, two thousands. I didn't foresee it. And I ended up losing a lot of money on that business cuz we had long term lease and I had lots of commitments, so I ended up filing for bankruptcy or insolvency.
[00:03:36] Moe: And and I went back to Dubai, perfect time to go back to Dubai. Dubai's on the up. I have lots of contacts there, lots of family there. So I went there and I started a relocation company called Access to Dubai, helping people move their businesses from Europe to the UAE and setting them up administratively.
[00:03:52] Moe: And then I opened a small cafe there with a friend of mine, a French concept, a Crêperie cafe concept. And that turned out to be better than the relocation business. So we expanded that. And 10 years later we sold that to the biggest supermarket chain in the middle east, but I had lots of problems with my investors.
[00:04:08] Moe: So after that ordeal was over, I moved back to the UK, took 18 months off.
[00:04:12] Moe: This is an interesting story. It only came to me recently. I watched a leadership development workshop. There was a freelance trainer and I invested with him essentially to help get his business up, cuz it was just him and his wife actually doing the admin.
[00:04:27] Moe: And he used to train some of the people I know and some of the businesses I was involved in and I loved him and I'm still very good friends with him. And I watched him deliver a leadership workshop, a full day one, and it was within 15 minutes of that, that I went, "that's what I wanna do".
[00:04:41] Moe: I never knew Scott, what I wanted to do.
[00:04:42] Moe: And by 2015, when I sold my business, my most successful business, I'd already started 12 businesses in total.
[00:04:49] Scott: Wow.
[00:04:49] Moe: I'm not including the CD bootleg business. That would've been, that would be 13, cuz that's not really a business that was just bootlegging.
[00:04:55] Moe: But. I started 12, mostly around hospitality, but different types of businesses. So I was involved in co-working. I was involved in concierge services. I was involved in uh, training. And yeah, I realized that was 2012. And I said, "that's what I want to do". And a few months later, my best friend passed away from a sudden heart attack at 38 and we were supposed to go and I had a concierge company called Dear Dubai, and it was this I, the tagline was, leave your wallet at home.
[00:05:21] Moe: So the idea was, you'd send me your budget if you're in the UK and we would take care of your entire trip in Dubai and you'd leave your wallet at home. You wouldn't need to spend a penny. So you're sending your budget over. So we'd pick you up from the airport, take you to your hotel or apartment or whatever it was.
[00:05:35] Moe: You'd have a hostess the whole time or a host. You'd have a driver and we'd book the restaurants and the clubs that we know that you want to go and visit in Dubai. Yeah.
[00:05:43] Scott: Was this like a holiday or a business trip?
[00:05:45] Moe: It was it was to experience the hospitality, the nightlife of Dubai. And then I partnered up with similar concepts to mine in Vegas, Mykonos Ibiza.
[00:05:54] Moe: So we ended up buying all those domains dearibiza, dearmykonos.com. Like these didn't exist. I've sold some of them for a lot of money now.
[00:06:01] Moe: So we were going to go and open dear LA. So he was raised in LA my mate Nano, and he just bought a house in LA. He did a big deal, bought a house in LA.
[00:06:08] Moe: It was a four bedroom in west Hollywood and he gave me a bedroom and he said, you're gonna come to LA a few months a year, and we're gonna open dear LA. And we're gonna do a crossover between LA and Dubai, cuz there's no connection. Really. It's too far LA right from Dubai. It's too far from London. But then you're adding another seven hours and he passed away six weeks before he was supposed to move to LA. And so that killed that dream. And that's when I started thinking it life's too short. I need to do what I need to do.
[00:06:33] Scott: That must have affected you?
[00:06:34] Moe: Yeah I started drinking every day. I, my health went I, I fought with lots of close friends. I had business problem. That's where our business problems started really.
[00:06:43] Moe: Cause I just stopped caring what anyone thought I stopped considering the other parties just instantly, I was already pretty selfish as it was. I was quite hardheaded and stubborn already, but that was the time where I thought I don't care what anyone thinks. I just need to do what I need to do, but it took me three years to get that done.
[00:07:00] Moe: So when I sold the business and I got rid of all my business problems in Dubai, or at least paused them, I took 18 months off. And that's when I met my mentor in Greece. And I started learning about NLP and timeline therapy and family constellation. And I started understanding I started learning nonviolent communication, practical philosophy.
[00:07:19] Moe: I started reading for the first time since I was at school. And end of 2016, I started Mo Choice, it was called choice matters at the time. It wasn't called Moe so Moe Choice is obviously not my real name but it was called choice matters. The concept was you always have a choice.
[00:07:32] Moe: As long as you're alive the next morning, you can choose to live your life a different way. That's the message really. You can choose how to live your life any second of, as long as you're breathing and conscious, you can choose how to live your life. And it's the Jim Rohn saying, "you can't change your destination overnight, but you can change your direction".
[00:07:50] Moe: So I started that end of 2016 and it's taken me sort of five, six years to establish that. And essentially what I do now is I help people understand the choices, people, businesses it doesn't matter what their situation is to understand the choices that they actually have.
[00:08:07] Moe: To figure out how to plan to make those choices. And that's where the One Page Plan concept came from. It's self development, not shelf development. You don't need 180 page document to tell you how to live your life. You don't need that. You don't need a book to tell you how to live your life.
[00:08:21] Moe: You just need a one pager. Why do you want to do what you do? How do you want to get their principles and values? And then what does the next 12 months look? You don't need to look beyond 12 months. So that was the that's really where I am today. It's we can map out how you want to live your life on one page.
[00:08:35] Scott: Fascinating journey. It took you that time to find what you wanted to do.
[00:08:40] Scott: What do you think's holding people back then from thinking, from realizing they have a choice. I love the what it shelf.
[00:08:46] Moe: Shelf development. Not self development. yeah.
[00:08:48] Scott: How many people I'm guilty. You buy a book and you put shelf read that one day, that'll help me, and I'll never read the book.
[00:08:53] Moe: Same as business plans, like I'm involved in business. So I help investment firms I investigate startup founders to see what type of characters they are. And you're giving me a 60 page document, business plan.
[00:09:02] Moe: We don't need this. We don't need this. It's a waste of time,
[00:09:07] Moe: Yeah. like a strat, a business strategy, and there's people employed it's their job to write all these things and who it just goes on the shelf, whoever looks at
[00:09:15] Moe: Who
[00:09:15] Scott: And the world changes the minute that document's published.
[00:09:19] Scott: it's a comfort blanket. Isn't it? It's oh, I feel safe I've got this document.
[00:09:22] Moe: Proven I've, it's a bit like university, if you think about it, what are you doing at university? You're proving that you can write reports. That's what, so that who picks you up? Pricewaterhouse, Coopers, Deloitte Accenture, that's what it's built for. Can you write reports and can you write properly?
[00:09:34] Moe: And can you do it on time, in time to a high quality? If you can you get a six figure salary.
[00:09:38] Scott: yeah.
[00:09:39] Moe: We charge nine figures for that work.
[00:09:42] Moe: And most of it's templated really it's bullshit. It's complete bullshit. And Mike Tyson has a saying, when he was a fighter, they said what do you think his plan's going to be for you, whatever you, whoever he was fighting.
[00:09:51] Moe: And he said, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. And that's a great metaphor for life. You can come up with the best plan in the world, but COVID, you get cancer. Your wife dies, your son dies. Your best friend dies. How do you adapt to that? So the best plan is the framework for how you're going to adapt to the unknown, which is the majority of your life is the unknown really?
[00:10:10] Moe: So the best plan is how am I going to adapt to the unknown that's Scott that's responsibility, literally ability to respond. That's what the word means. Again, and people they interchange responsibility with accountability. It's you don't know what the difference is because you're, you don't understand what the words mean. It's not an old word responsibility. It doesn't come from old German or Greek or Latin. It's a new word. It's ability to respond. Drive responsibly means you drive so that if a kid runs out in the street, you can respond.
[00:10:39] Scott: Yeah. I've heard that broken down before it's I am able to respond. That means you have a choice, how you interpret things around you.
[00:10:48] Scott: So why do you think people are stuck? Not, is it like blaming other people or it's, I'm just a victim. What's the kind of mental things that are holding people back from that?
[00:10:56] Moe: The best business I created, I didn't manage to, to nurture it because I'd already given up by then. But I partnered with the biggest DJ in the UAE, in, in Dubai, Danny Neville and we partnered up and we created a talent agency called Meta Talents. My job was to business manage the DJs cuz they were underrepresented and undervalued.
[00:11:13] Moe: It was a union that we were creating for DJs. And so I would fight for their money fight for when they get paid fight for their right, all that kind of stuff and manage their business affairs. Cause I understood money and most creatives don't right. They don't understand business.
[00:11:25] Moe: And Danny's here in the UK. So I met him yesterday and we were talking about there are no stupid people, at least potentially there's just a awareness. There's a scale of awareness and you can go to heightened awareness, like Buddha type that, that idea.
[00:11:39] Moe: And then you've got people that aren't just, they're just not aware, right? They're not aware. Yeah. Or it's, and it's not by choice. Sometimes it is. The ignorance is bliss. I'd rather not face my demons.
[00:11:51] Moe: I don't want to think about the mistakes I made. So I'd rather just forget it but the problem is you can't, that's conscious in the unconscious it's there. This is what I didn't understand until I met Elany my mentor.
[00:12:03] Moe: I didn't understand her first question is, do you understand what the unconscious is? And I went, what do you mean? And she goes, if I say the conscious and the unconscious, do you know what I'm talking about? And I was like, not really, I can guess. And I started telling her what it, what came up for me and she's you get it, you understand it, but you just haven't had the education.
[00:12:20] Moe: So come and I'll show you. And she explained to me, it's the iceberg, it's the tip of the tip of the iceberg. If I say to you think of a time when you were a kid how many different memories can pop up? Where are these memories? They're not in your conscious mind, they're in the unconscious.
[00:12:32] Moe: Everything's in your unconscious, it regulates your body. It keeps you safe. It gets rid of your cancerous cells. It digests your food. It moderates your body temperature. That's your unconscious. That's what we're not aware of.
[00:12:43] Moe: So what's awareness. Awareness is bringing the unconscious into the conscious. So the more unconscious you have in your conscious awareness, the greater your levels of awareness, no one teaches us this, no one in school. Scott says to me, what do you want to do? How do you want to live? What's important to you? How do you know that? And if they do ask it's the, it's what my parents told me to say I wanna get A's in my A-level. And then I wanna go to top university and then I wanna get a first class degree. And then I want to get the job in Pricewaterhouse Coopers.
[00:13:11] Moe: When was the first time I got asked this probably in this is in the early 2010s. What are your values? I didn't know what that meant. I'm like, what are you talking about? What do you mean your value? What does that even mean? Principles, philosophy.
[00:13:24] Moe: So back to your question I think it's just awareness, how many people are aware of who they are, how the world lives, their beliefs, their values, their attitudes, the choices they have and how many aren't. If you say I don't wanna revisit that past, that's a choice you're making and it makes a hundred percent sense.
[00:13:41] Moe: Why would you? And by the way, I didn't think about my life and decisions until I took that 18 months off. I didn't have time to breathe. I was in business all the time. And then out of business, I'm drinking and having fun. I just, it was party hard. It's the classic cliche. I thought I was unique. It's just cliche.
[00:13:57] Moe: But until I took that break and I had someone look me in the eyes and ask me these questions, I never thought of this stuff.
[00:14:03] Scott: So the people you help, are they struggling to do, what they really want to do? Or they don't know what they want to do is that what you're trying to help them with is to go through a journey you went through or shorten that journey you went through, not have to spend years trying to do it?
[00:14:14] Moe: I was talking to Sarah about this, Sarah who helps me run the One Page Plan. And she was saying "it doesn't matter what you say to me, Moe I have to experience it to know, oh, that's what Moe's talking about. And I have to do it my own". And I said, "yes, but there's two ways of looking at it. I give you the concept, the idea. And when it happens, you go, oh, that's what Mo's talking about. Or you don't have a concept to map, which means you have to stop what you're doing and reflect properly on what's happened and come up with your own concept." What do they call it in the corporate world, knowledge, skills, behavior. You learn about something, but the skill of using it has to happen with you putting it into practice. And only when you put into practice regularly, does it become a behavior.
[00:14:54] Moe: So we all know we have to eat properly and we have to sleep eight hours. We all know this, but how many of us do it as a skill, let alone have it as a, as an automatic habit behavior. So taking the time off and thinking about my life and asking these questions, I came up with this framework, the One Page Plan, and the idea was, if I give this framework to someone, at least they have a map now they'll probably not follow the map. But at least they've got a map and they understand why they do what they do, how they want to do it and where they want to go. So look, 7,000 hours, I think it's nearly 8,000 now that I've done personal development work, it's essentially personal development.
[00:15:27] Moe: It doesn't matter if it's corporate, if it's career related, it makes no difference. It's your personal development, right? Self-help. It's showing you how to help yourself. It's essentially over a thousand people I've worked with right closely.
[00:15:38] Moe: Six to eight year olds. I did a Grenfell Tower based after study club. People who lost their fathers and whatever from Grenfell they had a study club and I did, I helped them do their homework, essentially six to eight years old. And then all the way to retired people who literally don't know what to do. "I'm retired I'm gonna live for another 15, 20 years. Probably. I don't know what to do with my life". And from all types of nationalities all corners of the world, thanks to, to Zoom and the internet. I noticed one thing is true. We there's three problems only, right? Fundamentally number one, we don't know where we're going and that's our primary concern.
[00:16:14] Moe: So if I say to you, Scott, let's go for a beer. First question is where are we going? Let's go to the movies. Where are we going? Maybe what are we gonna watch? But it's the same question where, right? Where are we heading? And you hear people always say, what's the point. They're literally telling you, I don't know where we're going.
[00:16:27] Moe: The point of the arrow I literally don't know where we're going. If I offer you a plane ticket, where's it. Where's it heading, get in my car. Where are we going? It's constantly the, it's the first thing psychologically that we're worried about. Is this taking us to danger or is it taking us to sanctuary?
[00:16:40] Moe: So that's problem number one, we don't know where we're going. I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. I got married. I had kids. I'm turning up to work every day. I'm working hard. I'm being polite to everyone. Where is this taking me heaven. That's why religion's so big. As far as I can tell, because they gave you a, you're gonna get to heaven, just follow the rules and you'll get to heaven where you spend, you're only have, you only have to live for 40, 50 years of suffering.
[00:17:05] Moe: And then you get to heaven for the rest of your life for the rest of eternity so no wonder everyone followed that idea. It's oh great. We know where we know where we're going.
[00:17:12] Scott: That's one less thing to worry about!
[00:17:14] Moe: Yeah. A big thing!
[00:17:16] Moe: Second problem. You know where you're going you don't know how to get there again, religion. okay. We know we want to go to heaven. How do we get there? Follow the 10 commandments. What are those principles and values? So we know where we're going. So let's say you and I decide we're going to the Amazon and we know why by the way. So when Simon Sinek says, start with why I'm sure you're familiar with him.
[00:17:34] Moe: It's the same question, right? What is the purpose of your effort? That's the same question. Why are we doing what we're doing? Where are we going? It's the same question. How do we, okay, so we decide we want to go let's make it easier. We want to go to Vegas and we know why, because we want to have a unbelievable time and connect and have lots of fun and not worry about the repercussions. Right? Guilt free. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. That's we bought into that idea. Okay. How are we gonna get to Vegas? You're gonna say "let's land in New York and then we'll rent an SUV and then we'll drive through America and we'll stop over in new Orleans and we'll" and I'm saying, "let's just get the fastest flight"... different values.
[00:18:09] Moe: You want to explore. You want to take your time. You want to enjoy the scenery. I just want to get to Vegas different values, same destination, different how right. And then, okay. We agree on a flight now. Cause I'm stronger willed than you and you back down, and you say "fine, we'll take a flight."
[00:18:26] Moe: Okay. Let's take an evening flight". " No. Let's take a morning flight". "No let's book first class". " No, let's just get economy "different values. Why are we spending money on a flight when we could spend it in a strip bar in Vegas? Why are we going at night and missing the whole day in Vegas when we can go in the morning and right.
[00:18:41] Moe: So again, different values, different principles, different belief. Simon Sinek says, start with why I say focus on how, if you know where you're going, you have to focus on how you want to get there. And these are principles. And one thing I've learned by observing people is it's so easy for people to tell you their principles, but they don't live by them.
[00:18:59] Moe: Very few people live by their principles unconditionally, Are you going to quit your job if it breaks your principles? Are you gonna leave your wife if it breaks your principles?
[00:19:07] Moe: Are you gonna to give up your income and your money for your principles? How many people do? I can't see many people do that. And the ones that do, we still quote them, Gandhi and Nelson Mandela and JFK who got shot in the head for his principles.
[00:19:19] Moe: There's very few people that live by their principles and we still adore them. But ultimately but how many people know them? It's the same as when people are vegan and I always ask them why what's gonna happen? Where's that gonna take you? And it's usually guilt free. Usually it's they don't wanna feel guilty about what they're eating. Cause they're not, unless they're activist types and then what they want is a better world. So they're trying to convince other people, but it's okay how do you live a vegan lifestyle?
[00:19:42] Moe: How do you live? And people give me different answers all the time. It's not the same thing. It's like LGBTQ, how do you live an LGBTQ plus lifestyle, how right. They're different principles. I think that's our problem. I think we can figure out where we're going.
[00:19:56] Moe: And there's universal value Scott, freedom, joy, peace, love you can pretty much, my belief is that everyone wants that. No one says I don't want freedom or I don't want peace of mind, or I don't want love or joy. They might pretend they don't because they're corrupted and they're malevolent now. But really it's everybody wants that. So that's universal values, you can say, but then there's something underneath it. You said satisfaction, happiness. What is happiness? You bring a hundred people and ask 'em what happiness is. You're not gonna get the same answer. It's usually less suffering by the way, when you really get under the skin, it's usually less bang.
[00:20:26] Moe: I want a bit more money and a bit more time to do what I wanna do. That's really what they're saying. Okay. So that's the, how bit the principles and the values, right? What are my core? And you don't need, you need 5, 6, 7 maximum of things that you're going to live by no matter what. And you have to be very clear about these things.
[00:20:43] Moe: It doesn't, it's not an easy exploration. If you haven't done it before, particularly. And then once you figured out how you want to get, so we want to go a scenic route to Vegas and we want to take our time and we want to enjoy, and we want to discover places on the way, and we want to enjoy the journey.
[00:20:58] Moe: And we don't wanna spend lots of air miles, carbon foot. I don't know if it makes a difference if you drive or fly, whatever. You see these don't play a part in my principles. These things, it's not important for me but other people can figure that out. But once you've done that once you know where you're going, Vegas, and you know how you want to get there, the scenic route, then it becomes what choices do I have to make now? What are we booking? When are we booking it? Who's paying and that's action. Cuz principle, doesn't give you action.
[00:21:22] Moe: And what, where you're going. Doesn't give you an action. And that's essentially what the One Page Plan is. Where are you going? Why do you exist? Why does Scott exist? What's the purpose of Scott? That's where you're going, right? That's the why. Okay. How does Scott want to get there? Scott wants to follow these principles always and unconditionally. Great. So what does the next 12 months look like? And you only need the next 12 months by this idea. Anyone who tells you three year goals five year ago, they don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
[00:21:50] Moe: Honestly, they don't know what they're talking about. That's a vision, that's not a goal. And you set your vision and it's the same vision. Hopefully you only have one vision, really. And that's about how you want to live your best life. That's your vision? Experientially, not technically not.
[00:22:04] Moe: I have a house in Hamstead with five bedrooms and three kids and two dogs and a million dollars in the bank that's not what I mean by living your best life. What does that give you? I'm, I feel connected. I'm enjoying every day. I'm engaged. I'm surrounded by people who love me and respect me.
[00:22:17] Moe: I'm doing what I enjoy doing. I'm valued for what I do. I'm creative. I have balance in my life. I sleep well. I'm healthy. It's these types of things that we're talking about living your best life
[00:22:27] Scott: Not material things.
[00:22:28] Moe: Not that's that's tactics. The house with five bedrooms is a tactic to give you what security status. We can even go psychologically into the human needs. We all have the same bloody needs. We're not different, safety, security status, competence, attention, right? These are our needs. So when we say what this thing about three years, five years, seven years nonsense.
[00:22:50] Moe: It's what is the next 12 months look like? Cause that's short enough that you can start aligning with where you want to go and sorry, long enough so that you can start aligning and it's short enough to adapt to COVID. In illness, your business going bust your company, firing you or your company going out of business.
[00:23:08] Moe: Kodak was my main sponsor in my first business. And they went, bust, Kodak, went bust. It's like whaty, how is Kodak going? Bust?
[00:23:14] Moe: Right.
[00:23:15] Scott: So do you get people to think about in that 12 month period then what are the risks? What are the threats? Do you cuz it's hard. Isn't it to predict what's gonna happen today let alone next week!
[00:23:23] Moe: What, I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example, Scott.
[00:23:25] Moe: So we say, so what is it? Fourth of J 4th of July. Happy 4th of July whoever's listening in America. So 4th of July. So I would say to you, 4th of July, 20, 23, what does that look like? And you would say something like I've lost 10 stone in weight, I've bought my first house and I've started my business. That's it. Great. Let's aim at that.
[00:23:44] Moe: And then every day, every week, every month, you're thinking about what am I going to do that gets me closer to that and all you need a month. So the cycle of progress is planning action reflection.
[00:23:56] Moe: That's a good, really good way of thinking about it. I like to simplify it right. As much as possible. What's planning, not plan. I think Eisenhower said " plans aren't important planning is" the plan doesn't matter, but what do you have to do to come up with the plan? You gotta think, where am I going?
[00:24:12] Moe: How do I wanna get there? What does it look like? That thinking is what gets you aligned and gets you aware, right? So you, you are planning for the next month, let's say, and then you go and take action based on that plan. I'm gonna sign up to the gym and I'm gonna buy some running shoes and I'm going to go to the gym every Monday at 12.
[00:24:30] Moe: Okay, great. That's a good plan. It might be a shit plan, but a shit plan's better than no plan, right? So let's go with that plan. And then in a month you're gonna come back and say, you know what, Monday morning didn't work for me. The running shoes weren't comfortable. The gym was full of people that I didn't like.
[00:24:46] Moe: I didn't like the vibe. Okay. So what are you gonna do next month? I'm gonna change the gym membership. I'm gonna change my gym shoes and I'm gonna go on a Wednesday. All right. Let's try. That's tactics. Tactics can change overnight, but the strategy doesn't change the strategy of losing weight so that you can live your best life buying a house.
[00:25:01] Moe: So you can live your best life. Getting a new business started so you can live your best life. That doesn't change.
[00:25:05] Scott: Does that help stop people giving up then? it's "oh, I didn't like the gym, so oh well screw it".
[00:25:12] Moe: So here's the choice thing against Scott. So it's okay. Why did you want to go to the gym? Because I wanted to live my best life. Why does the gym help? Because it gets me healthy in mind, body and soul. Okay, great. How else can you get healthy in mind, body and soul. If there's no gym. That gets them thinking about choice or I could do a dance class or I could go play football with my friends or I could.
[00:25:32] Moe: Okay. So aren't you doing that? Let's try that this month. Okay. So this month I'm gonna email 10 of my best mates, my college buddies and ask 'em. If they wanna play football once a week, I'm gonna find dance classes. I'm gonna, okay. Let's try. It's explore. Life is Simon Amstel says "life is exploration, not destination", cuz in the end we all die. What are you exploring? You're exploring the best way for you to live your life. How do you know it's the best way Scott? Cuz I'm engaged. I'm excited. I'm energized. I'm empowered all the E's exploration, right? That's a good way of tying it. I put my effort. I'm happily happy to put my effort in.
[00:26:06] Moe: Here's a really good question for anyone to ask every morning. I have finite effort and energy today that I can put in to the day cuz you're gonna collapse eventually. There's a finite amount of effort you can put in. Where am I choosing to put the effort today? Where am I choosing? And ultimately you want the question to be in the activities. That's going to get me closer to where I want to be. That's gonna get us to Vegas. I'm gonna put my effort today in the activities. That's gonna get us closer to Vegas.
[00:26:33] Moe: George Harrison from the Beatles says, "if you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there".
[00:26:38] Moe: Tobias, a good friend of mine he's big in the Scrum world. He says, "I like that any road will take me there". That's fine. I argue with him that he knows where he's going. He's going into the unknown to explore whatever happens that's clarity on, where you're going.
[00:26:51] Moe: It sounds contradictory, but if you're happy with exploring the unknown, then you know what you want, you wanna explore the unknown, so you know where you're going. So you're happy to take any road.
[00:27:00] Scott: Yeah. That's why I prefer the concept of a roadmap rather than a plan. Because your plan is fixed and, "oh, I can't deviate from the plan". Whereas a roadmap is "I know where I'm going and I may come across a roadblock, but I'll take a different route, but I'm still going to the same destination".
[00:27:14] Moe: You suggesting I change my branding Scott?!
[00:27:16] Moe: But it's a good point. Cuz what I call it a map. I don't actually call it the plan. When I talk, I say it's a map to guide you, to explore how to get to where you want to get to. It's a framework. It's a trellis,
[00:27:27] Moe: A framework for freedom if you like, that's a good way of thinking about it. That's a contradiction too, but it's a true one. It's a paradox. You need a framework for freedom otherwise it's too chaotic. Total freedom is too chaotic. There's no structure.
[00:27:39] Scott: What happens when people get there or don't get there or change their mind?
[00:27:45] Moe: My theory and I'm yet to be proven wrong is that if you, if we get clear on where you're going, you'll never change your mind cuz that's what you want. And like I say it's based on experience, not on specifics. So you might change your mind on the goal, right? So imagine you said to me, my goal is to buy a house 4th of July, 20, 23.
[00:28:03] Moe: I own a home and a month later you say, I don't wanna own a home anymore. Okay. How did you figure that out? Because you were trying to own a home and then you realized, so there's massive utility in that. And so what if it, okay, you don't wanna own a home? What do you wanna do instead? I want to Airbnb, I wanna be a digital nomad.
[00:28:20] Moe: Great. So how are we gonna do that? What needs to happen for that? Fine. Let's just do that.
[00:28:25] Moe: The goal doesn't matter. This is what people need to get outta their heads. The goal doesn't matter. The direction matters, right? Goals are just guesses. It's your best guess at what you need to do to get to where you want to get to it's your best guess. But it's just a guess. So I always tell people don't value the goal, value goals, value having goals. That's what you need to value, but the goal doesn't have value unless it gets you closer to where you wanna be, has no value otherwise just is a waste of time, waste of energy. So don't value the goal.
[00:28:55] Moe: Don't be attached to the goal, be attached to where you're headed. You're vision, right? You're living your best life. It's the best way to the kids nailed this one, living your best life. What does that feel like? What is it? The experience of that? Everybody knows the answer. Scott, I've got a, I've got a, if people are stuck, I've got a couple of ways to get them out of that, but everyone knows the answer and it's essentially freedom.
[00:29:17] Moe: Peace, joy, love, essentially. Which brings us all together, which is another beautiful thing about the God, the religious people nailed it with heaven. They nailed, they absolutely nailed it. The most popular concept ever. No? Heaven? Is there a more popular concept?
[00:29:34] Scott: Yea I get it.
[00:29:35] Moe: Yeah. They're clever. The people that wrote the Bible are clever. They knew what was going on.
[00:29:40] Scott: Do you think it's increasingly hard for people in the lifestyles that we lead now to, to get to where they want to go or to even have the time and space to, to think about that? That's what you said, you found that after years you had to take that pause. I was speaking to another guest on the episode that's just gone live today, actually around COVID was a trigger for a lot of people to actually have the head space to think, "actually, this job's pretty shit that I'm doing" but they just were doing it on autopilot.
[00:30:08] Moe: It's a classic. I don't have time. But then you're posting about how you just binged watched Narcos on Netflix. It's so you got the time.
[00:30:15] Scott: Yeah. It's what you choose to do with your time isn't it? Everyone's got the same amount of time.
[00:30:18] Moe: That's the awareness thing, right? I don't have time. I don't have time for this, but you're posting every five minutes on LinkedIn. So what do you mean you don't have time get off LinkedIn for a couple of days,
[00:30:27] Scott: Yeah.
[00:30:28] Moe: Right? I say to people, two hours of reflection a month is enough or one hour of reflection every fortnight or half an hour, every week is enough. And the three questions, where am I going? How do I want to get there?
[00:30:41] Moe: What does it look like in the next week or in the next two weeks or in the next month? If you do that every month, right? Or every two weeks or every, you can do it every day. Sometimes I do it every day when I'm really stuck. Scott I'll wake up in the day and say, what does today look like in the ideal?
[00:30:55] Moe: And then at the end of the day, I'll ask myself, did it. Did it match what I planned and if not, why not? And how do I do better tomorrow?
[00:31:02] Moe: Steve jobs has that thing right in the commencement speech where he says, "if you wake up and look in the mirror every day and say, am I looking forward to today? And for four or five days, the answer is no, you need to change fundamentally change what you're doing". It's the same kind of concept. There's not that many truths to life. Really. It's just that people say it in different ways.
[00:31:18] Moe: Yeah,
[00:31:19] Moe: It's the same thing though. It's who are you?
[00:31:20] Moe: And then who are you gonna blame anyway? What are you gonna blame? Oh, I don't have enough time. Okay. So who are you blaming exactly for that? Yeah.
[00:31:26] Scott: Netflix. They're just tempting me with they're tempting me with too much TV. It's too good.
[00:31:31] Moe: The auto thing that goes to the next step that does my head in. I like, I wanna watch the credits and it's it's flick to the next episode. I can't find the remote and
[00:31:38] Scott: you're like, "oh no now I've gotta watch it!"
[00:31:40] Moe: Yeah, it's unbelievable. How this so your question I think was an important one is the current situa I think it's both because.
[00:31:49] Moe: Never have we had more connection with others, access to knowledge, access to ideas, access to never can we never have, we had a time where we can make money ourselves online without having to get a job and work nine to five. My calls start at 11. I don't do calls before 11.
[00:32:05] Moe: I, I just don't want to get on. I can literally roll out a bed quarter to 11, brush my hair, turn on my laptop and start work, literally. Whereas in the old, when I was working at, in Goodge Street I'm up at six in the morning. I got no choice.
[00:32:17] Moe: I'm on the underground with no phone, no phones either in those days.
[00:32:19] Moe: I used to always be late Scott, because I didn't like waiting. Really? Or that was my excuse. I don't like waiting for people. Now I don't mind waiting. Cause I'm on my phone. Now I get annoyed when people turn up, it's oh I was in the middle of this article. I was watching this, it's like, when you get annoyed, when someone calls you on your phone, it's which is the point of the phone.
[00:32:34] Moe: It's like, I was watching this video. Why'd you call me? So life changes and we adapt to it. But I think we've got the best opportunity now to figure out where we want to go. The fact that people talk about personal development, mental health, wellbeing these things, these are old concepts, but everyone's talking about, most companies have a wellbeing officer and mental health first aiders and coaching is normal.
[00:32:56] Moe: Now, it has been in America for a while, but it's getting normal in the UK. Therapy's normal now, it's, I think this is good. And I think, when you look at these webinars and stuff that people run, people are signing up to these. I run a monthly webinar and people sign up to them, so people are interested in learning and where did we have that before?
[00:33:11] Moe: I didn't have that growing up, at least I didn't know about it. But the other side of it is I'm scrolling on Instagram and I can't get off or I'm, I'm, I was researching personal development on YouTube. Now I'm watching two giraffes fighting over a female giraffe and it's like, how did I get, how did I get, how did I get there?
[00:33:26] Moe: It's the rabbit hole if you know this, put an alarm on your phone,
[00:33:30] Scott: Yeah. There's the software that will lock down your internet access after a certain amount of time if you haven't got the awareness or self control to be able to do it yourself, but you've gotta have the willingness to install that in the first place.
[00:33:40] Moe: That's the intention. That's the so James Clear, if anyone hasn't read Atomic Habits, it's the best book about building habits, right? And he's not, he didn't come up with these concepts. He simplified them. He gathered them and he, and one of them, he says, when someone wanted to cut off to stop on the internet, they got one of those timer things on the plug, on their modem.
[00:33:55] Moe: That's shuts off at 10 o'clock. It's so you can, when I used to get stoned and play PlayStation in my younger days, and we'd have sweets on the table, everyone would eat the sweets. If I took the sweets out and put grapes and everyone would eat the grapes, and strawberries.
[00:34:07] Moe: How are you setting up your environment to help you live your best life? That's the first question. Really? You need to ask, look around your environment and say how's this helping me.
[00:34:16] Scott: Yeah. That's like leaving the trainers by the door or the swimming bag ready for the morning, rather than, just those simple little changes.
[00:34:22] Moe: Canceling your Netflix cancel your Netflix it'll save you 10 quid a month or whatever it is,
[00:34:27] Scott: Yeah. Fascinating. So one of the bits I just wanted to ask you, we talked about that importance of that checking in every, you said every month or twice a month, was it?
[00:34:36] Moe: Latest every month.
[00:34:38] Scott: okay
[00:34:38] Moe: But I would recommend weekly. If you can, half an hour, don't have time. Don't have time Scott don't have time, half an hour. Whoa, don't him off an hour. Woo It's episode of whatever you're watching on Netflix.
[00:34:48] Scott: Yeah. It pays back in dividends. Doesn't it? That's the thing I've often said the importance of teams and leaders as well to take out regular time out and retrospective is the term that's used, say actually what's working, what's not working. And I did that with my team in past job during the course of the fortnightly cycle, they'd write on the wall in one of those whiteboard things, not literally vandalizing and say here's the things we wanna talk about the next retrospective, this is not going good this is going good and this is what we wanna do more of. And then we'd have that chat and say, what are we gonna do next month or in the next fortnight to help us improve?
[00:35:20] Scott: And that time out is so important. Whereas a lot of people don't do it cuz they're just in the busy trap, aren't they? And then you just keep doing stuff that's potentially not any good and you're not improving.
[00:35:30] Moe: He so I know we're not gonna have so much time to talk about this, but it's a really interesting concept. You, the unconscious that I talked about before, think about that as your six year old self. Why Aristotle said, show me a boy of seven and I'll show you the man. It's this idea that by seven we've built our model of the world, right?
[00:35:48] Moe: Neuroscience backs that up in many ways. I'm not a neuroscientist by any means, but it's this idea that your brain only really fully develops by the age of eight you're out of hypnosis, right? You're now cognitive, your cognitive function is now developing. So it's becoming literal and technical rather than, Ooh, I'm a spaceman.
[00:36:05] Moe: And my duvet is the spaceship and it's you come out of that terror. And I saw it when I did the six to eight year old homework class. You could see the difference between a six year old and an eight year old and how they it's unbelievable. The Greeks figured this out though 3000 years ago or whatever.
[00:36:19] Moe: So if you think about six year old Scott, as fundamentally who you are, that's your unconscious self and then 26 year old or whatever Scott is your conscious self now who you've become, that's the relationship you want to be working on constantly. That's the only I argue, that's the only relationship you have.
[00:36:37] Moe: Obviously you have relationships with others, but I think they're through others. It's the relationship with yourself, but that's way too deep for a five minute summary. But let's say your most important relationship is the one with yourself, you're stuck with that relationship for the rest of your life.
[00:36:50] Moe: What does relationship by myself mean? It means conscious and unconscious. That's the awareness, right? So the more aware you are, the better your relationship with yourself, right? Okay. So how do we become more aware? We need them to talk to each other. Cuz often we ignore big Scott ignores six year old Scott, six year old Scott wants to be free and joyful and creative old Scott says no we have to, no, we don't have time.
[00:37:13] Moe: We have to watch Netflix. Now we. So there's a mistrust, like any relationship. There's a mistrust team. You've talked about team. There's a mistrust between the leader of the team and the team. We don't believe you. We don't trust you. How do you build trust? We do what you say you're gonna do. And you do what matters and you do what's important. And you do things that get you to where you want to be, which is what six year old determines, by the way, not 36 year old. And you keep building that relationship by slowly. Now, why am I bringing this up now? Because the retrospective, as you called it is your chance it's not about, did we write down what we need to do next month and do it? That's not, what's important. What's important is the acknowledgement of what's working, what isn't working, what needs to continue that builds the relationship between conscious and unconscious or just that even if you do nothing, it builds the relationship raises your awareness, which means you're more likely to do something better next time.
[00:38:07] Moe: So it's an acknowledgement. And in the corporate world, again, we call it, stop, start, continue. What do we want to stop doing? What do we wanna start doing? What do we wanna continue doing? It's the same thing you were talking about just by acknowledging this Scott, you're building a relationship between six year old Scott and current Scott, cuz you're talking to each other.
[00:38:23] Moe: And I also believe that when you don't listen, what happens when you don't listen to a six year old? What do they start doing?
[00:38:28] Scott: Kicking, screaming and smashing stuff!
[00:38:31] Moe: So when you get migraines, rashes, can't sleep at night. Nauseous. I think this is your because where does this come from? You're unconscious. And I test the theory because when people have strong headaches or migraines, I'll say to them, what do you really want? Talk, speak it out loud, talk to it. But and the headache ends up disappearing.
[00:38:50] Scott: Do you think that's linked to the importance of play and downtime though, as well?
[00:38:54] Moe: Hundred percent child a hundred percent, It's six year old Scott that wants to live their life. And it got told what to do and restricted.
[00:39:01] Moe: The Benjamin Franklin quote, "everyone dies at 25, but gets buried at 75".
[00:39:06] Moe: Powerful quote, why is he saying that? Because by 25, you've given up on six year old Scott's dreams because I got my kid, I got my mortgage. I've got my career. I got it's too late.
[00:39:15] Scott: Yeah.
[00:39:16] Moe: We could talk about that for another hour, by the way, if you want, but we'll leave it for, we'll leave it for next year. Next year's episode!
[00:39:20] Scott: Yeah, I'll have to get you back onto another episode.
[00:39:23] Scott: Moe it's been absolutely fascinating. One of the things I ask all my guests is if you had one book that you could take to a desert island, what would it be?
[00:39:29] Moe: I'm not a big reader by the way. I haven't read that many books, but it would probably be a book of lyrics if there is one of my favorite songs. I dunno what that book is, but I'd probably take that. Yeah, I wouldn't take a book that, that I'd get bored reading two or three times.
[00:39:44] Moe: You can pick, you can gimme a book.
[00:39:47] Moe: I'm happy with the surprise.
[00:39:48] Scott: I think you've got a book in you. You need to write if you've not considered it.
[00:39:51] Moe: There you go. That's the answer. I'll write my book on a desert island there you go.
[00:39:54] Scott: Brilliant. So if anyone wants to work with you, how do they get hold of you? What's the best way?
[00:39:57] Scott: I'm more active on LinkedIn, but I've got a link tree account, which has all my socials and stuff on. So it's link tree forward slash Moe Choice if you Google Moe Choice, I'm the only one that exists. So you'll find me pretty much on anything, but you can connect with me on LinkedIn.
[00:40:11] Scott: I'll accept the connection and you can send me a DM there. Or you can just find me on link tree it's linktr.ee/moechoice.
[00:40:19] Scott: Brilliant. I'll put that in the show notes for everybody.
[00:40:22] Scott: Moe it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for being on the show.
[00:40:25] Moe: Thank you for giving me the opportunity and great to meet you, Scott.
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